Does obedience to the commandments carry any eternal consequences?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

In post#15 you said:

...While you are right that Paul discusses those who follow Christ, he also is speaking to everything that Christ's saves...which is everything God creates.

Father_JD picked up on that and said, in his usually rude manner, that Christ does not save everything God the Father created, and in saying that he was right.

You might have meant something else when you said what you said, BigJulie, but what Father_JD said was actually spot on, believe it or not.

Christ does not save the sons of perdition, which at one time were created as good children of God our Father in heaven.

Even rude people can tell the truth, sometimes.

Heck, even Satan tells the truth about half of the time, and he is as rude as a person can possibly get when he isn't acting as nice as he possibly can.

Okay, I am ***uming you mean saved from spiritual death. As we know that Cain is a son of perdition, will Cain be saved from physical death...or, otherwise stated, will Cain be resurrected and even have a chance to have a second death?

The discussion we are having is to Romans and what it means when Paul states that in Adam all men die, in Christ all men are made alive.

Now, if you want to back track and ask if Satan will be saved...those things that are not of this earth, but what God has created, we can step back and realize that Christ was given the responsibility to save all that was on this earth, which he did with the resurrection from physical death and the for those who follow him of a spiritual death.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Okay, I am ***uming you mean saved from spiritual death. As we know that Cain is a son of perdition, will Cain be saved from physical death...or, otherwise stated, will Cain be resurrected and even have a chance to have a second death?

Cain will be resurrected at the resurrection of the unjust, unless he will have gotten himself out of the really big mess he got himself into when God called him "Perdition"... not "son of perdition", but "Perdition", himself... and at that time he will suffer the second death, which is to be eternally separated from God, our Father, AND Jesus Christ, AND the Holy Ghost, AND all of us who have followed THEM.

The discussion we are having is to Romans and what it means when Paul states that in Adam all men die, in Christ all men are made alive.

Yes, I realize that. I'm not trying to get involved in your discussion, really.

I'm just pointing out that Father_JD was right, when you said he was wrong, because I think the poor guy should get credit from us at least once in a while when he actually says something which is actually true.

Now, if you want to back track and ask if Satan will be saved...those things that are not of this earth, but what God has created, we can step back and realize that Christ was given the responsibility to save all that was on this earth, which he did with the resurrection from physical death and the for those who follow him of a spiritual death.

Okay. I think I see the point you were getting at, now.

I think you were saying that Jesus Christ is saving or will save, at least to some extent, all of us born on this Earth, including Cain, because without Jesus Christ Cain would never be resurrected from the dead, just as none of the rest of us born on this Earth would be. I agree with you on that, because I consider our resurrection to be a form of salvation... even though it isn't the fulness of salvation that is possible through Jesus Christ.

I'm now simply saying that Father_JD was right when he said what he said, too.

Jesus Christ will not be saving Satan, and Satan was created by God our Father as one of his good children before Satan later chose to be evil.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Okay. I think I see the point you were getting at, now.

I think you were saying that Jesus Christ is saving or will save, at least to some extent, all of us born on this Earth, including Cain, because without Jesus Christ Cain would never be resurrected from the dead, just as none of the rest of us born on this Earth would be. I agree with you on that, because I consider our resurrection to be a form of salvation... even though it isn't the fulness of salvation that is possible through Jesus Christ.

I'm now simply saying that Father_JD was right when he said what he said, too.

Jesus Christ will not be saving Satan, and Satan was created by God our Father as one of his good children before Satan later chose to be evil.

Okay, Christ will not save everything, but of this things of this earth he will. He will put all things under his feet and when he is finished, He will resurrect and then judge them. Those who he judges has followed him, he will act as in intercession for God on their behalf, those who do not will go before God without anyone to intercede for them. Those who have no intercession will experience a second death...but this is still not a death of the body, but only a death of the spirit when they are once again removed from God.

The point that Father_JD and I disagree on is that he does not feel that Christ is responsible for the resurrection of all the dead and I do--that is a big difference; therefore, when he reads in Adam all die and in Christ shall all be made alive, he is not interpretting it to mean the whole human race, but rather only those who have followed Christ. I do not think this is what Paul was stating. I believe he was comparing the grace Christ gave to all men based on one man's act (Adam) and the grace he gives to all men based on all the sins of men committed.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Because Adam sinned, his consequences where p***ed on to everyone and all reap the consequence of this sin.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Adam brought the law of death unto the world, but Adam's sin is not upon us when that law (the one that brought death unto the world) is not in force.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Yet, man has reaped the reward (or consequence) of Adam's sin even though they haven't sinned the same sin Adam did, which will be like Christ when he comes, paying a price for a sin he hasn't committed.

Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

So, because Adam transgressed, all get to pay the price or consequence of his actions---so the judgement of one (Adam) is brought to all of us, but the gift that Christ gives us covers more than just Adam's offenses.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

So, if we are subject to the consequence of Adam and we receive this grace to overcome this sin of Adam's--how much more of grace have we received that one man not only takes on the sin of Adam, but all of our sins or many sins.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

So because of Adam's sin, we all receive the consequences, but it was the righteousness of one (Christ) that all of us are justified against this consequence....

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

... and the consequences that came about because of Adam's transgressions which gave us the opportunity to sin ourselves (which we did and do), yet because of Christ who is also one man, we also have the opportunity (as we did with Adam to sin) to be righteous with Christ.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Okay, Christ will not save everything, but of this things of this earth he will.

That is right, and I will now give you credit where I see credit is due.

He will put all things# under his feet and when he is finished, He will resurrect and then judge them.

# I think you mean all things of this Earth. Right ?

Those who he judges has followed him, he will act as in intercession for God on their behalf, those who do not will go before God without anyone to intercede for them. Those who have no intercession will experience a second death...but this is still not a death of the body, but only a death of the spirit when they are once again removed from God.

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean, here.

Please clarify. Your message came through a little garbled, to me.

The point that Father_JD and I disagree on is that he does not feel that Christ is responsible for the resurrection of all the dead and I do--that is a big difference.

I'm on your side on this one, BigJulie.

Without the resurrection of Jesus Christ, none of us would have been or will be resurrected.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

# I think you mean all things of this Earth. Right ?

Right...sorry, keep thinking in terms of our own lives and our own experience--not that of Satan and his followers.

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean, here.

Please clarify. Your message came through a little garbled, to me.

I am trying to say that after death, we have two positions we can be in---either behind Christ as he makes intercession for us with God the Father (who's atonement will cover out repentant sins) or alone and without Christ because we would not accept his atonement or intercession. This is the great sorting done separating the wheat and the tares...but God judges both the just and the unjust and the unjust will die and be resurrected and judged as well (but all in their order).

Without the resurrection of Jesus Christ, none of us would have been or will be resurrected.

Father JD states that it is not because of Jesus Christ that we are resurrected. I am not sure how he can intrepret any of Romans if he doesn't believe that because this Romans Chapter 15 hinges on that fact.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I am trying to say that after death, we have two positions we can be in---either behind Christ as he makes intercession for us with God the Father (whose atonement will cover our repentant sins) or alone and without Christ because we would not accept his atonement or intercession.

I agree, and I'm glad you added that part about our "repentant" sins.

Our Lord is not going to make up for sins for which we have not repented.

Some people may not like that idea, but that is true.

This is the great sorting done separating the wheat and the tares...but God judges both the just and the unjust and the unjust will die and be resurrected and judged as well (but all in their order).

Right, and I'm glad you added that part about "all in our order".

Some will receive telestial glory, some terrestrial, and some celestial glory.

... and some will receive no more glory than we/they have now on Earth.

Father JD states that it is not because of Jesus Christ that we are resurrected. I am not sure how he can interpret any of Romans if he doesn't believe that because this Romans Chapter 15 hinges on that fact.

I don't know either, but I know how he should be doing it if he wants to know what God meant when God said what God said.

When I want to know how to correctly interpret the scriptures, I ask God to TELL me how to correctly interpret the scriptures, and I recommend that everyone else do the same thing.