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Thread: Does obedience to the commandments carry any eternal consequences?

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  1. #1
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Default Does obedience to the commandments carry any eternal consequences?

    After asking whether Baptism was a commandment, the answer from the LDS critics was "yes". But then comments drifted into the idea that there were no eternal consequences for not obeying this commandment.

    Later I asked whether repentance was a commandment. I am waiting for a response from the non-LDS to this question. (LDS believe it is a commandment btw.)

    So here is my final question.

    Does obedience (or disobedience) to God's commandments carry any eternal consequences for the Christian? Or to put it differently, is obedience to God's commandments at all necessary for salvation?

    My guess is that most LDS critics will say 'NO', and use scriptures like Romans 8:28-29 to show it.

  2. #2
    GraftedIn73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    After asking whether Baptism was a commandment, the answer from the LDS critics was "yes". But then comments drifted into the idea that there were no eternal consequences for not obeying this commandment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post

    Later I asked whether repentance was a commandment. I am waiting for a response from the non-LDS to this question. (LDS believe it is a commandment btw.)

    So here is my final question.

    Does obedience (or disobedience) to God's commandments carry any eternal consequences for the Christian? Or to put it differently, is obedience to God's commandments at all necessary for salvation?

    My guess is that most LDS critics will say 'NO', and use scriptures like Romans 8:28-29 to show it.
    Hi Fig, I'll try to answer your question from my understanding of scripture.

    No one can ignore the commandments of God, without committing sin. In other words, ignoring or breaking God's commandments IS what sin is.

    The two greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus Himself said that ALL the commandments hang on these two.

    Paul reiterated this thought in Galatians 5:22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

    Taking these p***ages into consideration, I believe that anyone who has truly been transformed by the Holy Spirit, will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit and will in so doing, fulfill the two greatest commandments Jesus spoke of.

    How does this relate to repentance and baptism?

    Repentance: I believe that the very ability to repent is a work of the Spirit of God in the heart of a person. When God's Spirit has effectually convicted a person of their sinfulness, and they have understood the Gospel message of forgiveness in Christ, the response IS repentance. If there is no repentance in a person, they have not been effectually convicted and have not believed the gospel.

    Baptism: If a person has been effectually convicted by the Holy Spirit and believed the Gospel, they will be led of the Spirit to please the Lord in all they do. This is the fruit of the Spirit that Paul taught about in Galatians. If a person CLAIMS to have been convicted by God, CLAIMS to have repented of their sins, CLAIMS to have believed the Gospel, and yet stubbornly refuses to follow the Lord in baptism, I would seriously question the validity of their claims. If a person WILLFULLY REFUSES to honor the Lord, what evidence is there that they are obeying the command to love the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind and strength? If however, there are circumstances that PREVENT an otherwise willing person from following the Lord in baptism, i.e. thief on the cross type of scenarios as one example, or a terminally ill bed-ridden person who at long last believes, in these cases it is evident that the Lord forgives them and accepts them.

    GI73

  3. #3
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraftedIn73 View Post

    Hi Fig, I'll try to answer your question from my understanding of scripture.

    No one can ignore the commandments of God, without committing sin. In other words, ignoring or breaking God's commandments IS what sin is.

    The two greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus Himself said that ALL the commandments hang on these two.

    Paul reiterated this thought in Galatians 5:22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

    Taking these p***ages into consideration, I believe that anyone who has truly been transformed by the Holy Spirit, will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit and will in so doing, fulfill the two greatest commandments Jesus spoke of.

    How does this relate to repentance and baptism?

    Repentance: I believe that the very ability to repent is a work of the Spirit of God in the heart of a person. When God's Spirit has effectually convicted a person of their sinfulness, and they have understood the Gospel message of forgiveness in Christ, the response IS repentance. If there is no repentance in a person, they have not been effectually convicted and have not believed the gospel.

    Baptism: If a person has been effectually convicted by the Holy Spirit and believed the Gospel, they will be led of the Spirit to please the Lord in all they do. This is the fruit of the Spirit that Paul taught about in Galatians. If a person CLAIMS to have been convicted by God, CLAIMS to have repented of their sins, CLAIMS to have believed the Gospel, and yet stubbornly refuses to follow the Lord in baptism, I would seriously question the validity of their claims. If a person WILLFULLY REFUSES to honor the Lord, what evidence is there that they are obeying the command to love the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind and strength? If however, there are circumstances that PREVENT an otherwise willing person from following the Lord in baptism, i.e. thief on the cross type of scenarios as one example, or a terminally ill bed-ridden person who at long last believes, in these cases it is evident that the Lord forgives them and accepts them.

    GI73
    Thanks GraftenIn

    Your answers make sense to me. I believe that Repentance is a daily walk, and is never done. I think we are in agreement on that.

    I also agree that many will not have the opportunity for baptism in mortality. LDS believe that this ordinance cannot be skipped, for anyone. We believe that the work of converting souls continues after this life, in the world of spirits. And those who would have accepted this ordinance and their covenants with God but who did not have the opportunity in this life, will be able to receive those things in the world of Spirits.

    Thanks for your perspective.

  4. #4
    Charity
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraftedIn73 View Post

    Hi Fig, I'll try to answer your question from my understanding of scripture.

    No one can ignore the commandments of God, without committing sin. In other words, ignoring or breaking God's commandments IS what sin is.

    The two greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus Himself said that ALL the commandments hang on these two.

    Paul reiterated this thought in Galatians 5:22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

    Taking these p***ages into consideration, I believe that anyone who has truly been transformed by the Holy Spirit, will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit and will in so doing, fulfill the two greatest commandments Jesus spoke of.

    How does this relate to repentance and baptism?

    Repentance: I believe that the very ability to repent is a work of the Spirit of God in the heart of a person. When God's Spirit has effectually convicted a person of their sinfulness, and they have understood the Gospel message of forgiveness in Christ, the response IS repentance. If there is no repentance in a person, they have not been effectually convicted and have not believed the gospel.

    Baptism: If a person has been effectually convicted by the Holy Spirit and believed the Gospel, they will be led of the Spirit to please the Lord in all they do. This is the fruit of the Spirit that Paul taught about in Galatians. If a person CLAIMS to have been convicted by God, CLAIMS to have repented of their sins, CLAIMS to have believed the Gospel, and yet stubbornly refuses to follow the Lord in baptism, I would seriously question the validity of their claims. If a person WILLFULLY REFUSES to honor the Lord, what evidence is there that they are obeying the command to love the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind and strength? If however, there are circumstances that PREVENT an otherwise willing person from following the Lord in baptism, i.e. thief on the cross type of scenarios as one example, or a terminally ill bed-ridden person who at long last believes, in these cases it is evident that the Lord forgives them and accepts them.

    GI73
    Nice reply

  5. #5
    GraftedIn73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charity View Post


    Nice reply
    Thanks Charity!

  6. #6
    PostTribber
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    Default Yes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Does obedience (or disobedience) to God's commandments carry any eternal consequences for the Christian? Or to put it differently, is obedience to God's commandments at all necessary for salvation? My guess is that most LDS critics will say 'NO', and use scriptures like Romans 8:28-29 to show it.
    "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17)

    "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:16)

    "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15)

    as a believer, "we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)

    this can only be done by 'obedience'. disobedience to God's commandments is sin, "and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
    (James 1:15)

  7. #7
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by PostTribber View Post
    "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17)

    "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:16)

    "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15)

    as a believer, "we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)

    this can only be done by 'obedience'. disobedience to God's commandments is sin, "and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
    (James 1:15)
    Thanks, PT.

    I too believe that disobedience to God's commandments cons***utes sin. That is why we believe that a person cannot be saved IN his sins. Through Jesus Christ we can be saved FROM our sins, but that is contingent upon faith in the Lord and Repentance--both of which are ongoing continual exercises.

  8. #8
    PostTribber
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    Default agreed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    we believe that a person cannot be saved IN his sins. Through Jesus Christ we can be saved FROM our sins, but that is contingent upon faith in the Lord and Repentance--both of which are ongoing continual exercises.
    "Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." (Mark 1:14-15)

    simple enough. no need for all these 'Jimmy-come-lately's.

  9. #9
    Russ
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    Default Legalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Thanks, PT.

    I too believe that disobedience to God's commandments cons***utes sin. That is why we believe that a person cannot be saved IN his sins. Through Jesus Christ we can be saved FROM our sins, but that is contingent upon faith in the Lord and Repentance--both of which are ongoing continual exercises.
    What are the things a person must do to be saved in the LDS religion.

    Just off the top of my head:

    • Be baptized Mormon by another Mormon with authority to do so
    • Receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by another Mormon with authority to do so.
    • ***he 10% of one's gross income
    • Receive the LDS endowment (an initiatory rite performed in LDS temples
    • Be married to another Mormon in an LDS temple
    • Participate in "callings" (Relief Society, ward cl***es, singles wards, etc.)
    • Support the leadership of the LDS church
    • Make covenants and keep them
    • Repent
    • Have faith
    • Gain and maintain a testimony that the LDS church is true and the Book of Mormon is from God


    What else must a person do to be saved?

  10. #10
    The Pheonix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    What are the things a person must do to be saved in the LDS religion.

    Just off the top of my head:

    • Be baptized Mormon by another Mormon with authority to do so
    • Receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by another Mormon with authority to do so.
    • ***he 10% of one's gross income
    • Receive the LDS endowment (an initiatory rite performed in LDS temples
    • Be married to another Mormon in an LDS temple
    • Participate in "callings" (Relief Society, ward cl***es, singles wards, etc.)
    • Support the leadership of the LDS church
    • Make covenants and keep them
    • Repent
    • Have faith
    • Gain and maintain a testimony that the LDS church is true and the Book of Mormon is from God


    What else must a person do to be saved?
    Have you ever answered a question directly? Did you feel you needed to move to SLC to preach to Mormons? If so Russell, where did you receive that commandment and calling?

  11. #11
    alanmolstad
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    i just believe...and let god do the rest

  12. #12
    The Pheonix
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    i just believe...and let god do the rest
    What of the Sermon on the Mount, all geared toward commandments and the obedience of commandments to receive the fullness of God 's blessings and entrance into the kingdom of heaven...believe in Christ, but believe Christ.

  13. #13
    alanmolstad
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    not by works am I saved...not though my effort do I remain saved....

  14. #14
    The Pheonix
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    not by works am I saved...not though my effort do I remain saved....
    I am talking about the words of Christ, spoken by Christ. So many have built their hopes on a misunderstanding of Romans, and it has become like a chant to reinforce belief. Instead of just believing in Christ, but to "believe Christ".

  15. #15
    Libby
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    Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.…

    The requirement of the law was "perfection". Man was never going to make the grade...never could, never will be able to....only Jesus Christ could do that...and he did it for us. It's done.

  16. #16
    alanmolstad
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    the law is like my 3rd Grade teacher.
    While I was in the 3rd grade then the teacher's word was law...and I had to go to where the teacher was every day.

    But once I was no longer in 3rd grade then I no longer show up each day at the teacher's room.

    the teacher for a time had authority, but not any more at all...



    The same is true of the law.
    The law brings you to Christ, but in Christ we die in baptism....and as the law can not bind anyone who is dead, Im now set free of the law to live now not by efforts and laws but rather by grace and faith

  17. #17
    The Pheonix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.…

    The requirement of the law was "perfection". Man was never going to make the grade...never could, never will be able to....only Jesus Christ could do that...and he did it for us. It's done.
    You are right Libby, we will all come up short...then Grace will carry us over. But I do not think that Grace will pull all the way to where nothing was ever started.

  18. #18
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    You are right Libby, we will all come up short...then Grace will carry us over. But I do not think that Grace will pull all the way to where nothing was ever started.
    How could God's grace not be enough? You won't get better than that, especially not from your own strivings.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    How could God's grace not be enough?
    Was grace enough to save the spirits who followed Satan? Seems like there was something THEY needed to contribute to their salvation, something that they neglected to do.

  20. #20
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Was grace enough to save the spirits who followed Satan? Seems like there was something THEY needed to contribute to their salvation, something that they neglected to do.
    Yes, they forgot to put their faith in God...and followed Satan, instead...just like Adam and Eve.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Yes, they forgot to put their faith in God...and followed Satan, instead...just like Adam and Eve.
    So then you agree that grace ISN'T enough--obedience to God is also necessary, or you'll end up like those spirits who followed satan...or like Adam and Eve. Right?

  22. #22
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    So then you agree that grace ISN'T enough--obedience to God is also necessary, or you'll end up like those spirits who followed satan...or like Adam and Eve. Right?
    Our salvation is based on grace, our relationship and fellowship with God is predicated by our obedience. You don't lose salvation by disobedience but you lose the benefits of a close relationship with God and put yourself in harms way.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Our salvation is based on grace, our relationship and fellowship with God is predicated by our obedience. You don't lose salvation by disobedience but you lose the benefits of a close relationship with God and put yourself in harms way.
    You explained that well, IMO. But it comes down to three possibilities that I can see:

    1-- OSAS is a true doctrine,

    or

    2-- it is possible to become one of the elect but if you don't endure to the end in faith--if you later reject and renounce Christ your name, which had been in the book of life, gets taken out of it,

    or,

    3--- (the option I believe is the true and biblical one), eternal life is a destination that you arrive at, after you have shown a lifetime of loyalty and faith from the time you started on the path that leads to eternal life when you accepted Christ and promised to follow Him.

  24. #24
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    You explained that well, IMO. But it comes down to three possibilities that I can see:

    1-- OSAS is a true doctrine,

    or

    2-- it is possible to become one of the elect but if you don't endure to the end in faith--if you later reject and renounce Christ your name, which had been in the book of life, gets taken out of it,

    or,

    3--- (the option I believe is the true and biblical one), eternal life is a destination that you arrive at, after you have shown a lifetime of loyalty and faith from the time you started on the path that leads to eternal life when you accepted Christ and promised to follow Him.
    Greetings,

    I believe that eternal life is what the Bible says it is...eternal. If we were capable of losing our salvation, we would, every one of us. But it is God who keeps us (Jude 24) for we cannot keep ourselves. John explains those who seem to fall away or don't endure. 1John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

  25. #25
    Libby
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    Disciple, I am curious about your avatar. Is that your church's symbol? It reminds me a lot of the CRC symbol, which is a triangle with a cross in the middle.

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