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Thread: Does obedience to the commandments carry any eternal consequences?

  1. #76
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Did he get salvation despite the act of disobedience to God he committed right before he died?
    I cant think of a reason why not......

    I have no problem learning he was saved and that one day we will have the chance to meet with him and talk to him.
    He was killed for his actions, as many other people are that are saved and we will see in the kingdom. (see ACTS 5:5)

  2. #77
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    I am not "THE Pheonix," I am the other one, but I do have questions for you:

    In the OT story of Uzzah, the man chosen and ***igned to transport the Ark on a wagon, the wagon hit a bump in the road, and Uzzah tried to keep the Ark from falling off the wagon. He got fried and died as a result.

    Did Uzzah commit a sin the second before he died?
    Did he get salvation despite the act of disobedience to God he committed right before he died?
    He committed a sin and I don't really know what the eternal consequence was, but I doubt he went to hell.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I cant think of a reason why not......
    How about "not repenting before death" as a reason?

    He was killed for his actions, as many other people are that are saved and we will see in the kingdom. (see ACTS 5:5)
    But he was killed BY GOD for his actions. That's not really a good omen for his salvation, don't you think?
    Look at Ananias and Sapphira: Wasn't that about the same situation as Uzzah?

    1. Disobeyed God.
    2. God killed them for doing that.
    3. God still gave them eternal life?

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    He committed a sin and I don't really know what the eternal consequence was, but I doubt he went to hell.
    Do you doubt that Ananias and Sapphira went to hell?

  5. #80
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    How about "not repenting before death" as a reason?


    ?
    God is not a moron...He knows that when you die you have no more chance to say "Hey, sorry about that".....

  6. #81
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    H


    But he was killed BY GOD for his actions. That's not really a good omen for his salvation, don't you think?

    ?
    sometimes the Lord disciplines his own children.....

    So the truth is, that had the same sin been done by total unbelievers we would never hear about them for they would not be all that important as the person is lost....but the sins of a believer are a lesson for us all.....for they are errors within the family of God...

  7. #82
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post

    1. Disobeyed God.
    2. God killed them for doing that.
    3. God still gave them eternal life?
    yes...remember the verse that talks about this...the destruction of the body that the soul might be saved....
    It's how God works with us who are mixed up as to some issues, but right with Him as our Savior....

  8. #83
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Do you doubt that Ananias and Sapphira went to hell?
    they were believers...this is clear...so at death they went to the father as all Christians do...but they did suffer loss here in the flesh due to their sins...as we tend to also do....

  9. #84
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Do you doubt that Ananias and Sapphira went to hell?
    I think, maybe, you are demonstrating the difference between works salvation and salvation by grace alone. God is the one who saves, not us.

    He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy (***us 3:5).

  10. #85
    alanmolstad
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    yes.....we dont have a "works salvation" in the Christian faith.

    We are saved and kept saved via the cross of Christ ...this means that while in the flesh we may truly suffer for the things we do, we yet do not live in fear of losing our salvation.

    In other words, I do not keep needing to do 'works' to keep myself saved.

    So this means that while Ananias and Sapphira did suffer for the poor choices they both made, yet they were never in any danger of a loss of salvation dueto their actions.


    This is true not only for them, but for all of us too.
    All Christians are once saved/always saved, yet we can and do suffer for the poor decisions that we make.

    I can make a bad call about something, yet Im not in danger of being lost......but I am in danger of having the Lord chastise me for my actions, as a good Father will chastise his children when they are doing what is wrong.

  11. #86
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Do you doubt that Ananias and Sapphira went to hell?
    The only person I know who is in Hell is the Rich Man!

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    they were believers...this is clear...so at death they went to the father as all Christians do...but they did suffer loss here in the flesh due to their sins...as we tend to also do....
    So they didn't lie to or sin against the Holy Spirit?

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    So they didn't lie to or sin against the Holy Spirit?
    yes they did and they paid with their lives.

  14. #89
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    So they didn't lie to or sin against the Holy Spirit?
    what part of my answer is not clear to you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    what part of my answer is not clear to you?
    The part where you don't say that to lie to or sin against the Holy Spirit is said by the Bible to be unpardonable.

  16. #91
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    The part where you don't say that to lie to or sin against the Holy Spirit is said by the Bible to be unpardonable.
    You are confused as to what the "unpardonable sin" is....

    Go look it up...
    (see http://www.christiananswers.net/q-ed...onablesin.html )

    The two people in this Bible story that died did NOT commit such a sin.
    Rather they fall under the list of people that suffered in their flesh by the hand of God that their souls might be saved.
    (see 1 Corinthians 5:5 and 1 Corinthians 11:30 )

    So this means that they never lost their salvation, (as no Christian actually has to do things to remained in a state of being "saved")

    But you can suffer in the flesh for the sins you do as a judgement by the father, For the text tells us that a loving Father will chastise his children....


    TO SUM IT UP:
    The thing I think I need to highlight here is that we should not be running around making the unpardonable sin something that is easy to do.
    We don't want to scare Christians into thinking that they might have committed this sin, and are therefore without hope.

    Rather I think the wisest thing to do is to point out to people that the true "unpardonable sin is defined in the Bible as being something that Christ ran into when people gave credit to Satan for his works.
    And that this is far, far, fa,r different then the types of things we all can be fund guilty of, such as "telling a lie"......or misrepresenting yourself to others....


    and also, we need to always make sure that we teach that a Christian is NOT able to commit the unpardonable sin.

    Thus the two Christians in the story in ACTS that drop over dead when confronted with their sin are not in any danger at all of a loss of their salvation!

    But we can and do suffer in our flesh for the sins that we may do....for a loving Father will chastise his children to teach and correct them.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 06-22-2014 at 08:32 AM.

  17. #92
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    yes.....we dont have a "works salvation" in the Christian faith.

    We are saved and kept saved via the cross of Christ ...this means that while in the flesh we may truly suffer for the things we do, we yet do not live in fear of losing our salvation.

    In other words, I do not keep needing to do 'works' to keep myself saved.

    So this means that while Ananias and Sapphira did suffer for the poor choices they both made, yet they were never in any danger of a loss of salvation dueto their actions.


    This is true not only for them, but for all of us too.
    All Christians are once saved/always saved, yet we can and do suffer for the poor decisions that we make.

    I can make a bad call about something, yet Im not in danger of being lost......but I am in danger of having the Lord chastise me for my actions, as a good Father will chastise his children when they are doing what is wrong.
    I think this is one of my best answers on this topic of "keeping the Law"

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    yes.....we dont have a "works salvation" in the Christian faith.
    Would this be a "works salvation" theology?

    Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    We are saved and kept saved via the cross of Christ ...this means that while in the flesh we may truly suffer for the things we do, we yet do not live in fear of losing our salvation.
    IOW--the condition of enduring to the end for salvation--is a false doctrine?

    Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    In other words, I do not keep needing to do 'works' to keep myself saved.

    So this means that while Ananias and Sapphira did suffer for the poor choices they both made, yet they were never in any danger of a loss of salvation dueto their actions.


    This is true not only for them, but for all of us too.

    All Christians are once saved/always saved, yet we can and do suffer for the poor decisions that we make.
    Could you tell us whether "his own servants" was a reference to those who were saved?

    Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version (KJV)
    14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
    15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
    16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
    17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
    18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
    19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
    20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
    21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
    23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
    25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
    26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
    27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
    28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
    29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
    30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    After asking whether Baptism was a commandment, the answer from the LDS critics was "yes". But then comments drifted into the idea that there were no eternal consequences for not obeying this commandment.

    Later I asked whether repentance was a commandment. I am waiting for a response from the non-LDS to this question. (LDS believe it is a commandment btw.)

    So here is my final question.

    Does obedience (or disobedience) to God's commandments carry any eternal consequences for the Christian? Or to put it differently, is obedience to God's commandments at all necessary for salvation?

    My guess is that most LDS critics will say 'NO', and use scriptures like Romans 8:28-29 to show it.
    Disobedience to the commandment to follow the Jesus of the Bible does carry an eternal consequence as I'm sure Fig has found out by now.
    Oath formerly taken by Mormons promising not to reveal secret Mormon temple rituals: "Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field."

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
    Disobedience to the commandment to follow the Jesus of the Bible does carry an eternal consequence as I'm sure Fig has found out by now.
    I am sure Fig is fine. May he rest in peace.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    I am sure Fig is fine. May he rest in peace.
    Nope, I encountered him on many forums, and on each he fought against the Church founded by Christ and denied the truths of Scripture. There is no peace for the wicked. He never repented, as far as I know, and if he did not, he has reaped exactly what he has sown - as will you.
    Oath formerly taken by Mormons promising not to reveal secret Mormon temple rituals: "Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field."

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
    Nope, I encountered him on many forums, and on each he fought against the Church founded by Christ and denied the truths of Scripture. There is no peace for the wicked. He never repented, as far as I know, and if he did not, he has reaped exactly what he has sown - as will you.
    As I said before, as you judge, so shall ye be judged. If you read the New Testament, you will see that Christ is very forgiving of a lot of people who did a lot of bad things--but the one place he had no tolerance was for those who thought they had the truth (Pharisees) and went about condemning others.

    His words "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Would this be a "works salvation" theology?

    Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    IOW--the condition of enduring to the end for salvation--is a false doctrine?

    Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    Could you tell us whether "his own servants" was a reference to those who were saved?

    Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version (KJV)
    14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
    15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
    16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
    17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
    18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
    19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
    20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
    21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
    23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
    25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
    26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
    27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
    28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
    29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
    30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Bump for anyone

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Bump for anyone
    Hi. good to see you......

    One question, not for you but for others:

    How is it fair that Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Ghost right before they died, and still get to go to heaven, even though denying the Holy Ghost is called the unpardonable sin?

    And how is it fair that a poor African villager died without hearing the gospel, and therefore must spend eternity in hell?
    Last edited by Phoenix; 05-10-2017 at 01:06 PM.
    From the forum rules: "The definition of a derogatory term is one that insults, belittles or treats a group or individual with contempt. "

    "If you have to resort to making fun of people and their ideas, you have nothing valuable to contribute here."

  25. #100
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    And how is it fair that a poor African villager died without hearing the gospel, and therefore must spend eternity in hell?






    The creator of the universe knows how to judge his own creation.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 05-10-2017 at 07:02 PM.

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