Does obedience to the commandments carry any eternal consequences?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Christ does NOT SAVE everything God the Father created. You do NOT know the Bible, you do NOT understand it, but your corrupted Mormon understanding of it. Jesus said that He did NOT PRAY FOR THE WORLD, but only for those whom the Father had given Him.

A difference in your an my intrepretation of the Bible. I believe that God put all things under Jesus feet meaning all has been given to him. I also understand that Jesus will only make intercession for those who have chosen to follow him and this is what Christ presents to God at the final judgement. I see how you intrepret it, I just disagree.

Quote:
The p***age is not teaching resurrection is a form of "salvation". That's your kooky Mormon interpretation at work here.

Thank you for the put-downs.

Yes, it's completely possible without Christ because God can resurrect whomever He chooses to do so.

And this is another main difference of your intrepretations and beliefs and mine. Unlike you, I do not believe we would be resurrected if it was not for the atonement and resurrection of Christ.

The wicked are a part of the "Second Resurrection" and are thrown into the lake of fire. The "Second " is NOT some kind of salvation, ie.

Christ speaks of a greater ****ation which indicates that there is a lesser ****ation. As you stated that there are different rewards, there are also different degrees of salvation.

Quote:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be , much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.


Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.


Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:


Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto , even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Quote:
The p***age isn't teaching that ALL men (and women) will be justified, but is teaching that as the first Adam brought and destruction, the "second" Adam, i.e. Christ brings the free justification on those whom Christ will make righteous. The key is the next verse right after your "proof-text".

I can see how you read it the way you do, but I don't. I see a broader vision in which Paul is teaching how we are saved.

It has to do with Paul's contrasting Adam with Jesus and Greek usage. You've ignored the earlier verses in which is clearly states that SOME have been given the "gift by grace", which means others have NOT been given this.

It speaks to the grace unto physical salvation or grace unto spiritual salvation. Paul teaches how we overcame physical death and makes a comparison to how we overcome spiritual death. For by one man came death and so by one man came life....but because more than one man is a sinner and there are many sins, it is an amazing gift that by one man all these many sins were covered. This is a direct comparison so that the righteous can appreciate the full scope of what Christ did. I sorry I do not read this as you do. It says be one man all die and by one man all live and then goes on to speak of how this now applies to sin and spiritual death. Do you want me to take this line by line with you so you can see how I read it?

You keep ignoring the Bible's dire warning of those who are of the "Second Death". Christ's atonement is NOT efficacious for ****ed people's resurrection. THEY GO TO HELL, AND THEN THE LAKE OF FIRE. You've gotta READ the whole of the Bible, dear.

I do and I also realize how God's grace applies to even the ****ed. Do you believe that all the ****ed are sons of perdition?

There is NO salvation in the physical sense FOR THE ****ED. THEY GO TO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Deal with THAT.

After they have been saved which is why this is called the second death.

This has nothing to do with bizarre Mormon "interpretations" of the Bible.

[/QUOTE] Thank you for the put-downs again.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

A difference in your an my intrepretation of the Bible. I believe that God put all things under Jesus feet meaning all has been given to him. I also understand that Jesus will only make intercession for those who have chosen to follow him and this is what Christ presents to God at the final judgement. I see how you intrepret it, I just disagree.

Father_JD is actually right about what he is saying, though, at least this time, in some sense, even though you say you don't agree with him.

I recommend that you look at what God says about the sons of perdition, which God did create at one time.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76/30-49#30

And btw, I'm simply trying to give credit where credit is due, BigJulie.

I'm still not talking to Father_JD because I don't approve of how rude he is.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Father_JD is actually right about what he is saying, though, at least this time, in some sense, even though you say you don't agree with him.

I recommend that you look at what God says about the sons of perdition, which God did create at one time.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76/30-49#30

And btw, I'm simply trying to give credit where credit is due, BigJulie.

I'm still not talking to Father_JD because I don't approve of how rude he is.

On which thing do you think he is right...that God only gives Jesus that which is righteous or that God has give Christ everything and made all subject to him? Or are you talking about something else all together? I acknowledged that Christ will only make intercession for those who follow him, but I do not see this Romans chapter only referring to those who follow Christ as Paul refers to overcoming the sin of Adam. Please explain further so I can understand.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

On which thing do you think he is right...that God only gives Jesus that which is righteous or that God has give Christ everything and made all subject to him? Or are you talking about something else all together? I acknowledged that Christ will only make intercession for those who follow him, but I do not see this Romans chapter only referring to those who follow Christ as Paul refers to overcoming the sin of Adam. Please explain further so I can understand.

In post#15 you said:

...While you are right that Paul discusses those who follow Christ, he also is speaking to everything that Christ's saves...which is everything God creates.

Father_JD picked up on that and said, in his usually rude manner, that Christ does not save everything God the Father created, and in saying that he was right.

You might have meant something else when you said what you said, BigJulie, but what Father_JD said was actually spot on, believe it or not.

Christ does not save the sons of perdition, which at one time were created as good children of God our Father in heaven.

Even rude people can tell the truth, sometimes.

Heck, even Satan tells the truth about half of the time, and he is as rude as a person can possibly get when he isn't acting as nice as he possibly can.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

In post#15 you said:

...While you are right that Paul discusses those who follow Christ, he also is speaking to everything that Christ's saves...which is everything God creates.

Father_JD picked up on that and said, in his usually rude manner, that Christ does not save everything God the Father created, and in saying that he was right.

You might have meant something else when you said what you said, BigJulie, but what Father_JD said was actually spot on, believe it or not.

Christ does not save the sons of perdition, which at one time were created as good children of God our Father in heaven.

Even rude people can tell the truth, sometimes.

Heck, even Satan tells the truth about half of the time, and he is as rude as a person can possibly get when he isn't acting as nice as he possibly can.

Okay, I am ***uming you mean saved from spiritual death. As we know that Cain is a son of perdition, will Cain be saved from physical death...or, otherwise stated, will Cain be resurrected and even have a chance to have a second death?

The discussion we are having is to Romans and what it means when Paul states that in Adam all men die, in Christ all men are made alive.

Now, if you want to back track and ask if Satan will be saved...those things that are not of this earth, but what God has created, we can step back and realize that Christ was given the responsibility to save all that was on this earth, which he did with the resurrection from physical death and the for those who follow him of a spiritual death.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Okay, I am ***uming you mean saved from spiritual death. As we know that Cain is a son of perdition, will Cain be saved from physical death...or, otherwise stated, will Cain be resurrected and even have a chance to have a second death?

Cain will be resurrected at the resurrection of the unjust, unless he will have gotten himself out of the really big mess he got himself into when God called him "Perdition"... not "son of perdition", but "Perdition", himself... and at that time he will suffer the second death, which is to be eternally separated from God, our Father, AND Jesus Christ, AND the Holy Ghost, AND all of us who have followed THEM.

The discussion we are having is to Romans and what it means when Paul states that in Adam all men die, in Christ all men are made alive.

Yes, I realize that. I'm not trying to get involved in your discussion, really.

I'm just pointing out that Father_JD was right, when you said he was wrong, because I think the poor guy should get credit from us at least once in a while when he actually says something which is actually true.

Now, if you want to back track and ask if Satan will be saved...those things that are not of this earth, but what God has created, we can step back and realize that Christ was given the responsibility to save all that was on this earth, which he did with the resurrection from physical death and the for those who follow him of a spiritual death.

Okay. I think I see the point you were getting at, now.

I think you were saying that Jesus Christ is saving or will save, at least to some extent, all of us born on this Earth, including Cain, because without Jesus Christ Cain would never be resurrected from the dead, just as none of the rest of us born on this Earth would be. I agree with you on that, because I consider our resurrection to be a form of salvation... even though it isn't the fulness of salvation that is possible through Jesus Christ.

I'm now simply saying that Father_JD was right when he said what he said, too.

Jesus Christ will not be saving Satan, and Satan was created by God our Father as one of his good children before Satan later chose to be evil.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Okay. I think I see the point you were getting at, now.

I think you were saying that Jesus Christ is saving or will save, at least to some extent, all of us born on this Earth, including Cain, because without Jesus Christ Cain would never be resurrected from the dead, just as none of the rest of us born on this Earth would be. I agree with you on that, because I consider our resurrection to be a form of salvation... even though it isn't the fulness of salvation that is possible through Jesus Christ.

I'm now simply saying that Father_JD was right when he said what he said, too.

Jesus Christ will not be saving Satan, and Satan was created by God our Father as one of his good children before Satan later chose to be evil.

Okay, Christ will not save everything, but of this things of this earth he will. He will put all things under his feet and when he is finished, He will resurrect and then judge them. Those who he judges has followed him, he will act as in intercession for God on their behalf, those who do not will go before God without anyone to intercede for them. Those who have no intercession will experience a second death...but this is still not a death of the body, but only a death of the spirit when they are once again removed from God.

The point that Father_JD and I disagree on is that he does not feel that Christ is responsible for the resurrection of all the dead and I do--that is a big difference; therefore, when he reads in Adam all die and in Christ shall all be made alive, he is not interpretting it to mean the whole human race, but rather only those who have followed Christ. I do not think this is what Paul was stating. I believe he was comparing the grace Christ gave to all men based on one man's act (Adam) and the grace he gives to all men based on all the sins of men committed.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Because Adam sinned, his consequences where p***ed on to everyone and all reap the consequence of this sin.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Adam brought the law of death unto the world, but Adam's sin is not upon us when that law (the one that brought death unto the world) is not in force.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Yet, man has reaped the reward (or consequence) of Adam's sin even though they haven't sinned the same sin Adam did, which will be like Christ when he comes, paying a price for a sin he hasn't committed.

Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

So, because Adam transgressed, all get to pay the price or consequence of his actions---so the judgement of one (Adam) is brought to all of us, but the gift that Christ gives us covers more than just Adam's offenses.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

So, if we are subject to the consequence of Adam and we receive this grace to overcome this sin of Adam's--how much more of grace have we received that one man not only takes on the sin of Adam, but all of our sins or many sins.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

So because of Adam's sin, we all receive the consequences, but it was the righteousness of one (Christ) that all of us are justified against this consequence....

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

... and the consequences that came about because of Adam's transgressions which gave us the opportunity to sin ourselves (which we did and do), yet because of Christ who is also one man, we also have the opportunity (as we did with Adam to sin) to be righteous with Christ.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Okay, Christ will not save everything, but of this things of this earth he will.

That is right, and I will now give you credit where I see credit is due.

He will put all things# under his feet and when he is finished, He will resurrect and then judge them.

# I think you mean all things of this Earth. Right ?

Those who he judges has followed him, he will act as in intercession for God on their behalf, those who do not will go before God without anyone to intercede for them. Those who have no intercession will experience a second death...but this is still not a death of the body, but only a death of the spirit when they are once again removed from God.

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean, here.

Please clarify. Your message came through a little garbled, to me.

The point that Father_JD and I disagree on is that he does not feel that Christ is responsible for the resurrection of all the dead and I do--that is a big difference.

I'm on your side on this one, BigJulie.

Without the resurrection of Jesus Christ, none of us would have been or will be resurrected.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

# I think you mean all things of this Earth. Right ?

Right...sorry, keep thinking in terms of our own lives and our own experience--not that of Satan and his followers.

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean, here.

Please clarify. Your message came through a little garbled, to me.

I am trying to say that after death, we have two positions we can be in---either behind Christ as he makes intercession for us with God the Father (who's atonement will cover out repentant sins) or alone and without Christ because we would not accept his atonement or intercession. This is the great sorting done separating the wheat and the tares...but God judges both the just and the unjust and the unjust will die and be resurrected and judged as well (but all in their order).

Without the resurrection of Jesus Christ, none of us would have been or will be resurrected.

Father JD states that it is not because of Jesus Christ that we are resurrected. I am not sure how he can intrepret any of Romans if he doesn't believe that because this Romans Chapter 15 hinges on that fact.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I am trying to say that after death, we have two positions we can be in---either behind Christ as he makes intercession for us with God the Father (whose atonement will cover our repentant sins) or alone and without Christ because we would not accept his atonement or intercession.

I agree, and I'm glad you added that part about our "repentant" sins.

Our Lord is not going to make up for sins for which we have not repented.

Some people may not like that idea, but that is true.

This is the great sorting done separating the wheat and the tares...but God judges both the just and the unjust and the unjust will die and be resurrected and judged as well (but all in their order).

Right, and I'm glad you added that part about "all in our order".

Some will receive telestial glory, some terrestrial, and some celestial glory.

... and some will receive no more glory than we/they have now on Earth.

Father JD states that it is not because of Jesus Christ that we are resurrected. I am not sure how he can interpret any of Romans if he doesn't believe that because this Romans Chapter 15 hinges on that fact.

I don't know either, but I know how he should be doing it if he wants to know what God meant when God said what God said.

When I want to know how to correctly interpret the scriptures, I ask God to TELL me how to correctly interpret the scriptures, and I recommend that everyone else do the same thing.

[Father_JD]

I'm still not talking to Father_JD because I don't approve of how rude he is.

Now don't be in a tizzy, Bat Man, and run and hide like Mr. Maklelan.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Christ does NOT SAVE everything God the Father created. You do NOT know the Bible, you do NOT understand it, but your corrupted Mormon understanding of it. Jesus said that He did NOT PRAY FOR THE WORLD, but only for those whom the Father had given Him.

A difference in your an my intrepretation of the Bible. I believe that God put all things under Jesus feet meaning all has been given to him. I also understand that Jesus will only make intercession for those who have chosen to follow him and this is what Christ presents to God at the final judgement. I see how you intrepret it, I just disagree.

Yes, my "interpretation" is based upon a contextual reading of the Bible, yours is based upon Mormon doctrine/beliefs and superimposed onto the Biblical text thereby skewing your understanding of it.



Quote:The p***age is not teaching resurrection is a form of "salvation". That's your kooky Mormon interpretation at work here.

Thank you for the put-downs.

It is what it is, Julie. Only LDS interpret "resurrection" as SALVATION, thereby skewing the intended meaning of the Biblical authors.



Quote:
Yes, it's completely possible without Christ because God can resurrect whomever He chooses to do so.

And this is another main difference of your intrepretations and beliefs and mine. Unlike you, I do not believe we would be resurrected if it was not for the atonement and resurrection of Christ.

So you believe and you're welcome to your beliefs...just understand that they're NOT based upon the Bible, but upon anti-Biblical Mormon beliefs.


Quote:
The wicked are a part of the "Second Resurrection" and are thrown into the lake of fire. The "Second " is NOT some kind of salvation, ie.

Christ speaks of a greater ****ation which indicates that there is a lesser ****ation. As you stated that there are different rewards, there are also different degrees of salvation.

No, there are differing degrees of rewards in Heaven, and differing degrees of punishment in Hell. Being in the LAKE OF FIRE can NOT be construed to be some kind of "lesser salvation".



Quote:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be , much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.


Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.


Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:


Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto , even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Quote:
The p***age isn't teaching that ALL men (and women) will be justified, but is teaching that as the first Adam brought and destruction, the "second" Adam, i.e. Christ brings the free justification on those whom Christ will make righteous. The key is the next verse right after your "proof-text".

I can see how you read it the way you do, but I don't. I see a broader vision in which Paul is teaching how we are saved.

You don't, because you're reading the texts through Mormon-colored lenses which distort the intended meaning of Paul.


Quote:
It has to do with Paul's contrasting Adam with Jesus and Greek usage. You've ignored the earlier verses in which is clearly states that SOME have been given the "gift by grace", which means others have NOT been given this.

It speaks to the grace unto physical salvation or grace unto spiritual salvation. Paul teaches how we overcame physical and makes a comparison to how we overcome spiritual . For by one man came and so by one man came life....but because more than one man is a sinner and there are many sins, it is an amazing gift that by one man all these many sins were covered. This is a direct comparison so that the righteous can appreciate the full scope of what Christ did. I sorry I do not read this as you do. It says be one man all die and by one man all live and then goes on to speak of how this now applies to sin and spiritual . Do you want me to take this line by line with you so you can see how I read it?

How many times do I have to explain this to you? You're ignoring the QUALIFIERS:

In Adam: means everyone.
In Christ: means ONLY THOSE REDEEMED IN HIM.

Got it now?




Quote:
You keep ignoring the Bible's dire warning of those who are of the "Second ". Christ's atonement is NOT efficacious for ****ed people's resurrection. THEY GO TO HELL, AND THEN THE LAKE OF FIRE. You've gotta READ the whole of the Bible, dear.

I do and I also realize how God's grace applies to even the ****ed. Do you believe that all the ****ed are sons of perdition?

Yep. Amazing how you refuse to engage these very serious verses which clearly teach the eternal destiny of the Lost.

Quote:
There is NO salvation in the physical sense FOR THE ****ED. THEY GO TO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Deal with THAT.

After they have been saved which is why this is called the second .

No, the "Second " refers to the eternal, one-way direction of the Lost. The "first" refers to physical . Saved people do NOT go to the Lake Of Fire.



Quote:
This has nothing to do with bizarre Mormon "interpretations" of the Bible.

Thank you for the put-downs again.

BiZarre is what bizarre does, Julie.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Originally Posted by Father_JD

(I put the heading, just so you know I am directing this post to your earlier post.)

In a post I made to Bat-man, I went step by step through Romans 15. Do you care to go through it step by step with me so we may have a clear discussion on what you see when you read it verses what I do?

Also, if you don't stop the put-downs, I will just end the conversation. I love you, but not that much.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

(I put the heading, just so you know I am directing this post to your earlier post.)

In a post I made to Bat-man, I went step by step through Romans 15. Do you care to go through it step by step with me so we may have a clear discussion on what you see when you read it verses what I do?

Also, if you don't stop the put-downs, I will just end the conversation. I love you, but not that much.

By ALL means, let's go through it step by step which will make us both have to engage CONTEXT.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

By ALL means, let's go through it step by step which will make us both have to engage CONTEXT.

Okay, here is the one I did earlier.


Quote:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Because Adam sinned, his consequences where p***ed on to everyone and all reap the consequence of this sin.


Quote:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Adam brought the law of death unto the world, but Adam's sin is not upon us when that law (the one that brought death unto the world) is not in force.



Quote:
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Yet, man has reaped the reward (or consequence) of Adam's sin even though they haven't sinned the same sin Adam did, which will be like Christ when he comes, paying a price for a sin he hasn't committed.


Quote:
Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

So, because Adam transgressed, all get to pay the price or consequence of his actions---so the judgement of one (Adam) is brought to all of us, but the gift that Christ gives us covers more than just Adam's offenses.


Quote:
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

So, if we are subject to the consequence of Adam and we receive this grace to overcome this sin of Adam's--how much more of grace have we received that one man not only takes on the sin of Adam, but all of our sins or many sins.



Quote:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

So because of Adam's sin, we all receive the consequences, but it was the righteousness of one (Christ) that all of us are justified against this consequence....



Quote:
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

... and the consequences that came about because of Adam's transgressions which gave us the opportunity to sin ourselves (which we did and do), yet because of Christ who is also one man, we also have the opportunity (as we did with Adam to sin) to be righteous with Christ.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, you do yours and we can compare, step by step.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Okay, here is the one I did earlier.


Quote:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Because Adam sinned, his consequences where p***ed on to everyone and all reap the consequence of this sin.


Quote:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Adam brought the law of death unto the world, but Adam's sin is not upon us when that law (the one that brought death unto the world) is not in force.



Quote:
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Yet, man has reaped the reward (or consequence) of Adam's sin even though they haven't sinned the same sin Adam did, which will be like Christ when he comes, paying a price for a sin he hasn't committed.


Quote:
Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

So, because Adam transgressed, all get to pay the price or consequence of his actions---so the judgement of one (Adam) is brought to all of us, but the gift that Christ gives us covers more than just Adam's offenses.


Quote:
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

So, if we are subject to the consequence of Adam and we receive this grace to overcome this sin of Adam's--how much more of grace have we received that one man not only takes on the sin of Adam, but all of our sins or many sins.



Quote:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

So because of Adam's sin, we all receive the consequences, but it was the righteousness of one (Christ) that all of us are justified against this consequence....



Quote:
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

... and the consequences that came about because of Adam's transgressions which gave us the opportunity to sin ourselves (which we did and do), yet because of Christ who is also one man, we also have the opportunity (as we did with Adam to sin) to be righteous with Christ.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, you do yours and we can compare, step by step.

Nice try, BigJulie, but Father_JD will simply come back and tell you that he doesn't agree with your interpretation, in certain aspects, and he will continue to not agree with your interpretation until you agree perfectly with his interpretation.

Thus, if you stick to your guns and Father_JD sticks to his guns, you'll both end up essentially in a stand off, until maybe one of you drops your guns and just gives in to what the other person is saying.

... and the person who holds out the longest isn't necessarily going to be the one with the correct interpretation.

You could both end up sticking to your guns, with one of you being right and the other one of you being wrong, and in the end getting what you each chose to receive.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Nice try, BigJulie, but Father_JD will simply come back and tell you that he doesn't agree with your interpretation, in certain aspects, and he will continue to not agree with your interpretation until you agree perfectly with his interpretation.

Thus, if you stick to your guns and Father_JD sticks to his guns, you'll both end up essentially in a stand off, until maybe one of you drops your guns and just gives in to what the other person is saying.

... and the person who holds out the longest isn't necessarily going to be the one with the correct interpretation.

You could both end up sticking to your guns, with one of you being right and the other one of you being wrong, and in the end getting what you each chose to receive.

I think it will be interesting to see how he interprets this line by line. As with the discussion of "the wind listeth..." they have not been willing to show a congruent conversation Christ was having with Nicodemus...they take one line and put it with lines from other scriptures, but do not continue explaining how the conversation then is congruent. I would like to see what he says with this. If we agree to disagree, then so be it.

[Father_JD]

No, I will keep demonstrating the VALIDITY of historic Christianity's "interpretation" BY THE CONTEXT and you and BigJulie can only engage in special pleading of "latter-day revelation" as to WHY you interpret the way you do!

In other words, your interpretations can NOT be demonstrated from the Bible ALONE.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Father_JD
By ALL means, let's go through it step by step which will make us both have to engage CONTEXT.


Okay, here is the one I did earlier.


Quote:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Because Adam sinned, his consequences where p***ed on to everyone and all reap the consequence of this sin.

And you mean what by this? That this sin is merely physical ?? How about it's meaning Original Sin, whereby we're % in tresp*** and sin" and can NOT help but sin?


Quote:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Adam brought the law of unto the world, but Adam's sin is not upon us when that law (the one that brought unto the world) is not in force.

But in the following verse, Paul demonstrates that law was in force, hence


Quote:
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Yet, man has reaped the reward (or consequence) of Adam's sin even though they haven't sinned the same sin Adam did, which will be like Christ when he comes, paying a price for a sin he hasn't committed.

Huh? Where in the text does it state that when Christ comes, He'll "pay(ing) a price for a sin He hasn't committed"??? Paul is continuing his parallelism between Adam and Christ.


Quote:
Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

So, because Adam transgressed, all get to pay the price or consequence of his actions---so the judgement of one (Adam) is brought to all of us, but the gift that Christ gives us covers more than just Adam's offenses.

Remember, it's not just about physical , but of spiritual as well: judgment of CONDEMNATION but JUSTIFICATION (forensic, meaning legally deemed as righteous...declared guilt-free) as a FREE GIFT.


Quote:
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

we are subject to the consequence of Adam and we receive this grace to overcome this sin of Adam's--how much more of grace have we received that one man not only takes on the sin of Adam, but all of our sins or many sins.

The text is not saying about His "taking on the sin of Adam" or "all our sins or many sins", but that by GRACE, people will receive the GIFT of RIGHTEOUSNESS, i.e. ETERNAL LIFE.



Quote:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

use f Adam's sin, we all receive the consequences, but it was the righteousness of one (Christ) that all of us are justified against this consequence....

As seen per verse 17, justification is a GIFT upon "us", i.e. the REDEEMED in Christ. I've already explained that Paul is NOT saying that categorically everyone will be "justified".



Quote:
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

the consequences that came about because of Adam's transgressions which gave us the opportunity to sin ourselves (which we did and do), yet because of Christ who is also one man, we also have the opportunity (as we did with Adam to sin) to be righteous with Christ.

Already explained this to you. Paul's preserving his parallelism, but "many" as in being made sinners does mean everyone, but the "many" made righteous can ONLY refer to those who are "in Christ".

Now you do yours and we can compare, step by step.

Did so.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

.

Father JD...I did not see your intrepretation, merely a criticism of mine. What do you believe step by step, line by line, it means?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Father JD...I did not see your intrepretation, merely a criticism of mine. What do you believe step by step, line by line, it means?

I told you what they meant in addition to telling you just how you were WRONG.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

I told you what they meant in addition to telling you just how you were WRONG.

No, I would like to see the coherency in your thought from one line to another--your discussion did not do that. Maybe you can humor me and just do an intrepretation line by line yourself, so I can see your thought process line by line and how one thought moves to the next.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, I would like to see the coherency in your thought from one line to another--your discussion did not do that. Maybe you can humor me and just do an intrepretation line by line yourself, so I can see your thought process line by line and how one thought moves to the next.

I've just looked through my responses. It's all there: what the text is saying and a critique of your Mormon understanding of it.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

I've just looked through my responses. It's all there: what the text is saying and a critique of your Mormon understanding of it.

I didn't see it. I went through the response I made and your response to my response, and I didn't see it. If it is there, it should be easy to copy and and paste only your interpretation of the text line by line.

[Father_JD]

Well, read it again. I don't have time to spoon-feed you, sorry.