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Thread: Does obedience to the commandments carry any eternal consequences?

  1. #51
    The Pheonix
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    not by works am I saved...not though my effort do I remain saved....
    I am talking about the words of Christ, spoken by Christ. So many have built their hopes on a misunderstanding of Romans, and it has become like a chant to reinforce belief. Instead of just believing in Christ, but to "believe Christ".

  2. #52
    Libby
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    Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.…

    The requirement of the law was "perfection". Man was never going to make the grade...never could, never will be able to....only Jesus Christ could do that...and he did it for us. It's done.

  3. #53
    alanmolstad
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    the law is like my 3rd Grade teacher.
    While I was in the 3rd grade then the teacher's word was law...and I had to go to where the teacher was every day.

    But once I was no longer in 3rd grade then I no longer show up each day at the teacher's room.

    the teacher for a time had authority, but not any more at all...



    The same is true of the law.
    The law brings you to Christ, but in Christ we die in baptism....and as the law can not bind anyone who is dead, Im now set free of the law to live now not by efforts and laws but rather by grace and faith

  4. #54
    The Pheonix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.…

    The requirement of the law was "perfection". Man was never going to make the grade...never could, never will be able to....only Jesus Christ could do that...and he did it for us. It's done.
    You are right Libby, we will all come up short...then Grace will carry us over. But I do not think that Grace will pull all the way to where nothing was ever started.

  5. #55
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    You are right Libby, we will all come up short...then Grace will carry us over. But I do not think that Grace will pull all the way to where nothing was ever started.
    How could God's grace not be enough? You won't get better than that, especially not from your own strivings.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    How could God's grace not be enough?
    Was grace enough to save the spirits who followed Satan? Seems like there was something THEY needed to contribute to their salvation, something that they neglected to do.

  7. #57
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Was grace enough to save the spirits who followed Satan? Seems like there was something THEY needed to contribute to their salvation, something that they neglected to do.
    Yes, they forgot to put their faith in God...and followed Satan, instead...just like Adam and Eve.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Yes, they forgot to put their faith in God...and followed Satan, instead...just like Adam and Eve.
    So then you agree that grace ISN'T enough--obedience to God is also necessary, or you'll end up like those spirits who followed satan...or like Adam and Eve. Right?

  9. #59
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    So then you agree that grace ISN'T enough--obedience to God is also necessary, or you'll end up like those spirits who followed satan...or like Adam and Eve. Right?
    Our salvation is based on grace, our relationship and fellowship with God is predicated by our obedience. You don't lose salvation by disobedience but you lose the benefits of a close relationship with God and put yourself in harms way.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Our salvation is based on grace, our relationship and fellowship with God is predicated by our obedience. You don't lose salvation by disobedience but you lose the benefits of a close relationship with God and put yourself in harms way.
    You explained that well, IMO. But it comes down to three possibilities that I can see:

    1-- OSAS is a true doctrine,

    or

    2-- it is possible to become one of the elect but if you don't endure to the end in faith--if you later reject and renounce Christ your name, which had been in the book of life, gets taken out of it,

    or,

    3--- (the option I believe is the true and biblical one), eternal life is a destination that you arrive at, after you have shown a lifetime of loyalty and faith from the time you started on the path that leads to eternal life when you accepted Christ and promised to follow Him.

  11. #61
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    You explained that well, IMO. But it comes down to three possibilities that I can see:

    1-- OSAS is a true doctrine,

    or

    2-- it is possible to become one of the elect but if you don't endure to the end in faith--if you later reject and renounce Christ your name, which had been in the book of life, gets taken out of it,

    or,

    3--- (the option I believe is the true and biblical one), eternal life is a destination that you arrive at, after you have shown a lifetime of loyalty and faith from the time you started on the path that leads to eternal life when you accepted Christ and promised to follow Him.
    Greetings,

    I believe that eternal life is what the Bible says it is...eternal. If we were capable of losing our salvation, we would, every one of us. But it is God who keeps us (Jude 24) for we cannot keep ourselves. John explains those who seem to fall away or don't endure. 1John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

  12. #62
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    So then you agree that grace ISN'T enough--obedience to God is also necessary, or you'll end up like those spirits who followed satan...or like Adam and Eve. Right?
    I specifically mentioned "faith"....obedience will come from faith. It doesn't do any good to simply be obedient, if your heart is not right with God. Jesus pointed that out with the Pharisees, who were extremely obedient to the law, but had very hard hearts. They didn't have faith in God; they had faith in themselves, and their own works.

  13. #63
    Libby
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    Disciple, I am curious about your avatar. Is that your church's symbol? It reminds me a lot of the CRC symbol, which is a triangle with a cross in the middle.

    Attached Images Attached Images

  14. #64
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Disciple, I am curious about your avatar. Is that your church's symbol? It reminds me a lot of the CRC symbol, which is a triangle with a cross in the middle.

    It is a yield sign, meaning I yield, to Christ.

  15. #65
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    It is a yield sign, meaning I yield, to Christ.
    Ah...that's cool.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Greetings,
    I believe that eternal life is what the Bible says it is...eternal.
    I believe the same thing, of course. "Life everlasting" is a synonym. The issue being debated--which has been debated ever since Calvinism was invented, at least--is WHEN God actually gives it to you. There are Bible verses that can be used to support all 3 positions that I mentioned. That is why there isn't universal consensus on the issue. You have chosen to believe one of the 3. Other people choose one of the other two.

    If we were capable of losing our salvation, we would, every one of us.
    That is a buzzword that might be popular in some circles right now, but it didn't come from the Bible IMO, and it depends on the shaky premise that you already had eternal life and thus had something to lose. If eternal life is something that is in your future--something you are now on the path that leads to it--then the whole "lose your salvation" issue is moot because you don't yet have it. What we should be worrying about (working out with fear and trembling) is the very real possibility that we won't stay on the path the whole way to the destination. It is easy for someone who has started down the path that leads to eternal life, to wander off it. If that person doesn't get back on the path, he will never make it to the destination. That is the real, serious, danger that we all need to be careful about. We need to make sure we are "good ground" that the seed, when planted in us, grows all the way to maturity, and doesn't wither away and die when the weather gets bad. We need to make sure we aren't dry or rocky soil.

    There are multiple verses warning the saints to be careful not to fall away, which implies that it's possible for any of us--even the elect--to fall away. There are warnings that certain acts of disobedience will result in the curse of having your name removed from the book of life, and warnings about the seriousness of committing the unpardonable sin. So obviously the only way you can be sure you will arrive at the destination is if you are careful to stay on the path that leads there, or, if you have wandered off it, to get back on it ASAP.

    John explains those who seem to fall away or don't endure. 1John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."
    That isn't referring to the issue of whether or not it's possible to lose one's salvation; it's just talking about people who appeared to be "true, stable believers" but who really weren't. Perhaps they were imposters, wolves in sheep's clothing, or perhaps they were some of the unstable joiners who didn't stay grounded in the true gospel. That's why, when they deserted like Bowe Bergdahl did to the Army, it's evidence that they were never really true, loyal disciples.

  17. #67
    Libby
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    There are multiple verses warning the saints to be careful not to fall away, which implies that it's possible for any of us--even the elect--to fall away.
    Actually, the verse goes like this:

    "For false Christs will arise, and false prophets, and will show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect."

    Some take that to mean it's not possible.

    There are verses that seem to support perseverance of the saints, like John 10.

    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Actually, the verse goes like this:

    "For false Christs will arise, and false prophets, and will show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect."

    Some take that to mean it's not possible.
    You are correct: some DO take it that way.
    There are verses that seem to support perseverance of the saints, like John 10.
    .
    Yes. That's why I said that there are verses that can be used to support all 3 soteriologies.

  19. #69
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    You are correct: some DO take it that way.

    Yes. That's why I said that there are verses that can be used to support all 3 soteriologies.
    Yeah, I agree with that.

  20. #70
    The Pheonix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    How could God's grace not be enough? You won't get better than that, especially not from your own strivings.
    I think you are misreading some of my statements. God's Grace is all that saves men and women and all children from death and hell.

  21. #71
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pheonix View Post
    I think you are misreading some of my statements. God's Grace is all that saves men and women and all children from death and hell.
    So, you are a "grace alone" believer?

    This may sound silly to you, but one of the things that gave me an "aha" moment (regarding "works salvation") and really made me stop and think, was the idea that, in the LDS Church, one could be prevented from attaining the highest glory by simply drinking coffee.

    That's not to say that obedience doesn't have a place, because it does. But, God's grace and the faith we receive, in Christ's Atoning sacrifice, is all we need to be with God. His works, in and through us, will manifest as a sign that we have received faith, but it is not the thing that saves us. That was a huge revelation to me.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    So, you are a "grace alone" believer?

    This may sound silly to you, but one of the things that gave me an "aha" moment (regarding "works salvation") and really made me stop and think, was the idea that, in the LDS Church, one could be prevented from attaining the highest glory by simply drinking coffee.

    That's not to say that obedience doesn't have a place, because it does. But, God's grace and the faith we receive, in Christ's Atoning sacrifice, is all we need to be with God. His works, in and through us, will manifest as a sign that we have received faith, but it is not the thing that saves us. That was a huge revelation to me.
    I am not "THE Pheonix," I am the other one, but I do have questions for you:

    In the OT story of Uzzah, the man chosen and ***igned to transport the Ark on a wagon, the wagon hit a bump in the road, and Uzzah tried to keep the Ark from falling off the wagon. He got fried and died as a result.

    Did Uzzah commit a sin the second before he died?
    Did he get salvation despite the act of disobedience to God he committed right before he died?

  23. #73
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    I am not "THE Pheonix,"
    You might want to......perhaps.....think about .....a new name?

    (Im just suggesting it here...LOL The truth is, i long ago gave up attempting to tell the difference)

  24. #74
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    I am not "THE Pheonix," I am the other one,
    Or another suggestion is to post a photo so that at a glance i get who is talking to us....

  25. #75
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post

    Did Uzzah commit a sin the second before he died?
    yes!

    How was the ark being moved?__________on a cart?

    And, what was the reason for the ark's poles and the rings on it that held the poles?.....





    The truth is, the guy was killed as the 'last straw"....the idea of putting the ark on a cart and having some cows or whatever drag it around is NOT allowed in the text at all!!!!!!

    So being that the guy was in charge and was doing things he knew were wrong, (or should have known) we then can understand that his death was the result of breaking the law and being reckless with god's ark...

    Not just foolish...but actually reckless with it....

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