Does God respond to Man?

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Berean

First, I'm always surprised when I read anything from LDS posters with the word "gift" in it when it comes to matters of faith. Mormonism is a works-oriented religious system. In the LDS Bible dictionary (I use the KJV Bible with the LDS Church stamp on the binder) on page 697 the word "grace" has this definition:

"This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation AFTER they have expended THEIR OWN BEST EFFORTS...grace cannot suffice without TOTAL EFFORT on the part of the recipient."

We call it accountability--that God expects us to give our all as he did when he died on the cross on our behalf. We do not believe we can be luke warm of give half in effort in turning over our will to God.

There is no biblical grace in that statement. Whatever you have to work for with your best efforts is not a gift either. Mormons don't get grace until they have completed the "checklist" in Moroni 10:32. I will try to simply answer your original question.

The atonement is a gift to all of mankind that he cannot do for himself--in other words, even with our best effort, we cannot over come death and sin--therefore, we need this gift from God.

The mere act of believing is a gift. In the Bible, it's clear to Christians that mankind is corrupt and sinful in nature. Mankind is born in a sinful state and that has been the case since the fall of man with Adam (Romans 5:12). This is the exact opposite belief in Mormonism (Articles of Faith #2). Mormons think they aren't born with original sin and are therefore "off the hook". That is a lie from Satan and the Mormons have fell for it face-first (Romans 5:12). There is nothing that man can do to please God (Romans 8:8). We are all corrupt in His sight (Romans 3:10, 12, 23). Our works are disgusting in His sight (Isaiah 64:6). Mankind is dead in their sins and unable to please God and it was God who had to "quicken" us FIRST (Ephesians 2:1 & 5). God does not hear the sinner unless that person has done His will (John 9:31) - given the ability to believe (Philippians 1:29). What is His will? Jesus tells us in John 6:40: believe on Jesus.

This comment about Mormon's being "off the hook" is this gift that you seem to not recognize. We believe that we would be born in a sinful state if it were not for the atonement of Christ who has given us a clean slate from Adam---the atonement makes us responsible to God for ourselves, rather than responsible for Adam's behavior as well.

God isn't subject to the whims and decisions of mankind waiting for man to make the first move.

You are right, the first move he made was to atone for the sins of the world---because God didn't send his son to condemn the world, but to save it.

Just the simple act of believing in Christ has to come from the Father (Philippians 1:29). The Father has to "draw" the person to Christ (John 6:44).

Mormons don't believe that this occurs randomly, but that God answers all that seek him--in other words, to Mormons, God loves all and desires to bless all.

When the Father "draws" mankind and gives mankind the ability to believe, because mankind is dead in their sins and can't respond on their own, then God will respond with hearing the sinner AFTER that person has believed on the Son (prayer of repentance). Mankind is awarded the gift of eternal life for choosing to believe in Jesus (John 6:47).

To Mormons, this act of believing can be seen in the way they behave and the commitment they make to turn their will fully over to God--no half effort will do.

It's God FIRST - NOT man making a move first requiring God to act. Man deserves nothing on his own or his own merits. It's all about God - not us doing anything worthy enough to get God to give us His attention. We can't...we're garbage in His sight apart from Christ. Those without the real Jesus (God in the flesh) as taugt in the Bible are utterly lost and dead.

I agree, the first effort made by God happened before the creation of the world, in which a savior was provided. The only difference I see is that you believe God randomly picks and chooses whom he will save, and I believe that he will save all who are willing to follow him. While you see mankind as garbage, I see mankind as children of God, whom he loves and desires to save. All we need to do is turn to God and be willing to turn ourselves over to him.

[Berean]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;17674]

We call it accountability--that God expects us to give our all as he did when he died on the cross on our behalf. We do not believe we can be luke warm of give half in effort in turning over our will to God.

Nice spin, but it doesn't work - not with the Bible - only in Mormonland. We're not talking about accountability or will. We're talking about grace and faith. Grace is unmerited favor. The LDS definition of grace is clear. Have you given TOTAL EFFORT? If not, then I guess you get no grace. Are you perfected in him, denied yourself of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength (Moroni 10:32)? If so, your the first Mormon in history to answer "yes" to that question. If not, then you have no grace from your christ until you do so, that is if you believe what is in the Book of Mormon. Mormons today have their own individual hybrid form of Mormonism. Obedience is different than grace. The Mormon god requires your due diligence in adding to this by your own efforts to what the Mormon jesus did on your "cross". There is no grace in that. If your involved in the process, then it's man-based - not completely of Christ. The Mormon jesus couldn't do it all for the Mormon:

“When he (Jesus) became our Savior, he did his part to help us return to our heavenly home. It is now up to each of us to do our part and become worthy of exaltation.” (Gospel Principles, page 19)

The atonement is a gift to all of mankind that he cannot do for himself--in other words, even with our best effort, we cannot over come death and sin--therefore, we need this gift from God.

Once again, we have to define our terms. The LDS atonement is radically different than the atonement of Christianity. Even so, this gift from the Mormon jesus is not enough for Mormons to gain anything higher than the terrestrial kingdom - big deal! Honest Mormons tell me that anything less than exaltation (becoming a god) is ****ation to them. If a Mormon wants that, it's all up to them to get it - work - grace, faith and the atoning work of Christ are out of the picture.

This comment about Mormon's being "off the hook" is this gift that you seem to not recognize. We believe that we would be born in a sinful state if it were not for the atonement of Christ who has given us a clean slate from Adam---the atonement makes us responsible to God for ourselves, rather than responsible for Adam's behavior as well.

...only in Mormon doctrine is that so. It's obvious that you haven't read the Bible verses that do not support Mormon "theology". Romans 5:12 and Ephesians 2:1 & 5 are very clear. You are dead in your TRESP***ES and sins. Romans 5:12 says "all men". This epistle written by Paul was AFTER the ascension of Christ. You can either take the apostles word from the Bible which is inspired of God or you can take the word of Joseph Smith. I'm going with the Bible.

You are right, the first move he made was to atone for the sins of the world---because God didn't send his son to condemn the world, but to save it. Mormons don't believe that this occurs randomly, but that God answers all that seek him--in other words, to Mormons, God loves all and desires to bless all.

In Mormonism, everyone is a child of the Mormon god because they are his offspring from relations with the Mormon mother in heaven. In the Bible, only those that have RECEIVED Him are the children of God (John 1:12). Rejection of the real Savior of the Bible lands a person in outer darkness - not another kingdom/heaven regardless of that person's belief.

To Mormons, this act of believing can be seen in the way they behave and the commitment they make to turn their will fully over to God--no half effort will do.

Once again, have you fulfilled the definition of "grace" in your own Bible dictionary and in Moroni 10:32? If so, you're the first. They need to put your picture in the Ensign.

I agree, the first effort made by God happened before the creation of the world, in which a savior was provided. The only difference I see is that you believe God randomly picks and chooses whom he will save, and I believe that he will save all who are willing to follow him. While you see mankind as garbage, I see mankind as children of God, whom he loves and desires to save. All we need to do is turn to God and be willing to turn ourselves over to him.

The God of the Bible can do whatever He wants. He is not bound by man's dictates. God will give eternal life to those that put their total faith in Christ and trusting him to completely do for him/her TOTALLY what they could not do for themselves which is gain acceptance and reconciliation of the Father thus the need for Christ to atone for our sins. God sees mankind in his efforts and works to please him as "filthy rags" (garbage - pick any word you like) in Isaiah 64:6. We are dead in our sins and we cannot please him in the flesh. The Scriptures are clear as I gave them above. The Bible says that some are children of God and others are children of the devil. Jesus said that. Let me know if you want the references. It's in the LDS KJV Bible. John 3:16 is a true statement. God loved the world enough to send His Son for us to be our subs***utionary atonement to reconcile us with the Father. Mankind is born with a sin nature. In Christianity it's all about Christ. In Mormonism it's all about them adding to what their jesus could not completely do for them in their quest to become a god. If that wasn't the case, then Mormons wouldn't be dependent on their spouse in celestial marriage in making it to the LDS celestial kingdom to be with their heavenly father. The Mormon jesus is "out to lunch" on that quest. It's all up to the Mormon. It may make you feel self-righteous and proud, but you won't square any of that up with the Bible and you sure can't call to your jesus to help you out in that quest either. Your all on your own - oh yeah, and with the help of your spouse and family.

Where is your jesus and his atonement in this statement?

“Thanks to God’s great plan of happiness, families can be together forever – as exalted beings. No man in this Church can obtain the highest degree of celestial glory without a worthy woman who is sealed to him. This temple ordinance enables eventual exaltation for both of them. Any discussion of family responsibilities to prepare for exaltation would be incomplete if we included only mother, father, and children. What about grandparents and other ancestors? The Lord has revealed that we cannot become perfect without them; neither can they without us be made perfect. Sealing ordinances are essential to exaltation. A wife needs to be sealed to her husband; children need to be sealed to their parents; and we all need to be connected with our ancestors. In God’s eternal plan, salvation is an individual matter; exaltation is a family matter.” [Emphasis added] (Mormon Apostle Russell Nelson, Ensign, May, 2008, pages 7-10).

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Berean

[

The God of the Bible can do whatever He wants. He is not bound by man's dictates. God will give eternal life to those that put their total faith in Christ and trusting him to completely do for him/her TOTALLY what they could not do for themselves which is gain acceptance and reconciliation of the Father thus the need for Christ to atone for our sins.

In all of your post, I could have not said it better myself. God will give eternal life to those that put their total faith in Christ and trusting him...

Yes, I agree. This is what I call turning our will over to God and trusting him to do what we cannot...to me that is what faith is. Do you find that you turn your will to him with absolutely no effort, or do you need to rely on him to help you overcome your own will? Mormons dont' believe you can sit back and do nothing in this process. They believe that one must turn over their will and that this takes a full committment and effort on one's part. Is your experience any different? Do you just say, God, take over and never find yourself struggling to give up total control of your life? When Christ asked the rich young ruler to give up everything he had and follow him, why didn't the rich young ruler do it...was it Christ's fault for not regenerating him or his own for not being willing to make the effort?

I must admit, I think people are so brainwashed about what Mormons believe, that they don't actually listen to we are saying. If you listen to your own words, you will see that you also believe that you must put your total faith in Christ---that is what I was saying and that is what we as Mormons believe as well.

[Berean]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;17723]

In all of your post, I could have not said it better myself. God will give eternal life to those that put their total faith in Christ and trusting him...

Yes, I agree. This is what I call turning our will over to God and trusting him to do what we cannot...to me that is what faith is. Do you find that you turn your will to him with absolutely no effort, or do you need to rely on him to help you overcome your own will? Mormons dont' believe you can sit back and do nothing in this process. They believe that one must turn over their will and that this takes a full committment and effort on one's part. Is your experience any different? Do you just say, God, take over and never find yourself struggling to give up total control of your life? When Christ asked the rich young ruler to give up everything he had and follow him, why didn't the rich young ruler do it...was it Christ's fault for not regenerating him or his own for not being willing to make the effort?

I must admit, I think people are so brainwashed about what Mormons believe, that they don't actually listen to we are saying. If you listen to your own words, you will see that you also believe that you must put your total faith in Christ---that is what I was saying and that is what we as Mormons believe as well.

Julie,

I'm reading what you are saying and I've listened personally to Mormons in discussions to what they are saying. Here's the problem: you don't speak for church, you have no authority to speak for the General Authorities (they won't engage non-Mormons in discussions so I guess church members have no choice but to do it themselves) and much of what I hear is not official doctrines and teachings of your church. Most of the Mormons I know have lately been creating their own form of individual hybrid Mormonism. This is not Julieonism - it's Mormonism.

No, the only ones that are brainwashed, unfortunately, are our precious Mormon friends that have bought into the gospel, god and jesus of Joseph Smith's creation and imagination. They have blindly accepted what he told them in trusting in their feelings to determine truth (D&C 9 - burning of the bosom) instead of trusting what the real God has already said is truth. They have prayed about a book (Book of Mormon) that Joseph Smith used to translate by using a seer stone that he placed in his hat in which he was given the words. I'll be happy to give you the references if you are ignorant of this fact. The latest Mormon to acknowledge this fact was Mormo apostle Russell Nelson.

Yes, God can do whatever He wants, BUT HE WILL NOT violate His word. There are some things that God cannot do. He cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18). He will also not change (Malachi 3:6). Christianity doesn't put God in a box and tell Him that He cannot speak anymore. This is another misconception by Mormons. They think Christians don't believe in further revelation. God can do and say whatever He wants at anytime. I am not about to put limits on omnipotent, omniscient God.

This thread topic isn't much about "will", it's all about grace and faith. We also aren't talking about works. Christianity believes in works and we are all about it, but it's a by-product of a saving grace and faith that has already taken place. Mormons put the cart of good works before the horse of grace. Why do I say this? Mormons have things they have to do BEFORE they can get grace from their "jesus". According to Moroni 10:32 they must:

1. Be perfected in him
2. Deny themselves of ALL ungodliness
3. Love God with all your might, might and strength

"THEN is his grace sufficient for you". Have you done this? Do you know any Mormon who has ever done this?

Again, the LDS defintion of grace on page 697 in the back of the Bible says that "total effort" must be given to receive grace. You don't see that theology in the Bible. Grace is unmerited favor. There is nothing you can do in any way on your own to be worthy or work for grace. You were given grace since the beginning of time. Christianity doesn't have a checklist of what we have to do to get grace. You can't earn grace. As long as you confuse grace or faith with works that are done after the fact, you won't understand this.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE][QUOTE=Berean;17728]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Julie,

I'm reading what you are saying and I've listened personally to Mormons in discussions to what they are saying. Here's the problem: you don't speak for church, you have no authority to speak for the General Authorities (they won't engage non-Mormons in discussions so I guess church members have no choice but to do it themselves) and much of what I hear is not official doctrines and teachings of your church. Most of the Mormons I know have lately been creating their own form of individual hybrid Mormonism. This is not Julieonism - it's Mormonism.

You are right..you are hearing the opinion of someone who has been going to church for decades and reading the scriptures and listening to conference talks. Unfortunately, you do not seem to understand that if one does not understand the full gospel, it is easy to spin text and sensationalize it by taking a bit here and a bit there and ignoring the full-context. You can either believe what non-members who only look to find fault tell you, are you can believe what devout faithful attending Mormons tell you they believe.

No, the only ones that are brainwashed, unfortunately, are our precious Mormon friends that have bought into the gospel, god and jesus of Joseph Smith's creation and imagination. They have blindly accepted what he told them in trusting in their feelings to determine truth (D&C 9 - burning of the bosom) instead of trusting what the real God has already said is truth. They have prayed about a book (Book of Mormon) that Joseph Smith used to translate by using a seer stone that he placed in his hat in which he was given the words. I'll be happy to give you the references if you are ignorant of this fact. The latest Mormon to acknowledge this fact was Mormo apostle Russell Nelson.

I haven't blindly accepted anything. I trust that God does hear and answer my prayers and that his answers will be congruent with what he teaches. You can make fun a seer stone all you want, but other religions can make fun of a talking donkey, animals marching on to a boat, ephods, and animal sacrifices. I do not make fun of any of these things because I understand that the things of God are often laughed at by mankind.

Yes, God can do whatever He wants, BUT HE WILL NOT violate His word. There are some things that God cannot do. He cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18). He will also not change (Malachi 3:6). Christianity doesn't put God in a box and tell Him that He cannot speak anymore. This is another misconception by Mormons. They think Christians don't believe in further revelation. God can do and say whatever He wants at anytime. I am not about to put limits on omnipotent, omniscient God.

I am glad that you don't put limits on God, and you are right, God does not change...but what he tells his children changes for the circumstance they are in. This is why he can tell his apostles not to go to the gentiles or samaritans, but then give Peter a revelation to do such a thing.

This thread topic isn't much about "will", it's all about grace and faith. We also aren't talking about works. Christianity believes in works and we are all about it, but it's a by-product of a saving grace and faith that has already taken place. Mormons put the cart of good works before the horse of grace. Why do I say this? Mormons have things they have to do BEFORE they can get grace from their "jesus". According to Moroni 10:32 they must:

1. Be perfected in him
2. Deny themselves of ALL ungodliness
3. Love God with all your might, might and strength

"THEN is his grace sufficient for you". Have you done this? Do you know any Mormon who has ever done this?

You lack understanding of our doctrine and so bear false witness against us. I do not believe I can be perfected in God, nor have the pure love of Christ without God giving me this ability. What I said is that we must fully committ ourselves to following him, we must turn over our will to him in order for him to do this. This is the effort we make. Maybe for you, this is no effort--maybe God will's it and you have no choice but to turn your will over. Mormons believe that God does remove agency or the ability to choose from us. What does your own personal experience tell you? Does God force you to follow him or do you have to make an effort to turn your will over to him--with his Spirit helping you to do this fully AFTER you have made the committment?

Oh, by the way, the very first part of Moroni 10:32 is "Yea, Come unto Christ and be perfected in him..." ..."and deny yourself all ungodliness" ...and if you keep reading..."if ye by the grace of Christ are perfect in Christ and deny not his power"...

You seem to miss the whole point of this discussion which is that when we come unto Christ and let go of our sins, Christ is the one that does the perfecting.

Again, the LDS defintion of grace on page 697 in the back of the Bible says that "total effort" must be given to receive grace. You don't see that theology in the Bible. Grace is unmerited favor. There is nothing you can do in any way on your own to be worthy or work for grace. You were given grace since the beginning of time. Christianity doesn't have a checklist of what we have to do to get grace. You can't earn grace. As long as you confuse grace or faith with works that are done after the fact, you won't understand this.

Grace is an unmerited favor given to all mankind with the atonement of Jesus Christ. Without this atonement, no one, regardless of their choices, could be saved. This gift can never be removed. There is no checklist to recieve it. On the other hand, those who desire eternal life must be willing to fully committ themselves to God. You never answered my question. For the rich young man who came to Christ---why did he go away sad? Was it because of his lack of willingness to make a total effort (as we know he was making an effort as he explained to Christ) or was it Christ's lack of effort to fully recover him? Why did Christ ask him to do more? Would it require an effort on this young man's part, in fact, would it take a "total effort' for him to sale all he had and give it to the poor or not? Or was it Christ's fault for him not having what it took to do as Christ asked?

[Father_JD]

Grace is an unmerited favor given to all mankind with the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Grace is indeed "unmerited favor".
Grace is NOT given to "all mankind".

Again, you confuse resurrection for salvation.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Grace is indeed "unmerited favor".
Grace is NOT given to "all mankind".

Again, you confuse resurrection for salvation.

I never did see your step by step explaination of Romans---care to do it now? The way I read it, Christ overcame the fall of Adam. Do you remember the sentence for sin? I think you would agree it is death. Who do you think is not going to be resurrected?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I never did see your step by step explaination of Romans---care to do it now? The way I read it, Christ overcame the fall of Adam. Do you remember the sentence for sin? I think you would agree it is death. Who do you think is not going to be resurrected?

I suggest you go back and READ my response. Yes, Christ OVERCAME the "Fall", but scripture does NOT teach that it's UNIVERSALISTRIC in nature...but is ONLY efficacious FOR THE REDEEMED.

NOT for your garden-variety unrepentant SINNER.

Christ's resurrection PROVED that His atonement was ACCEPTABLE TO THE FATHER.

Yes, all will be resurrected, but in typical Mormon fashion you see only that portion of it that Mormonism permits you to.

Some are resurrected TO ETERNAL LIFE, others to ETERNAL ****ATION.

Now, how about engaging THAT??

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

I suggest you go back and READ my response. Yes, Christ OVERCAME the "Fall", but scripture does NOT teach that it's UNIVERSALISTRIC in nature...but is ONLY efficacious FOR THE REDEEMED.

NOT for your garden-variety unrepentant SINNER.

Christ's resurrection PROVED that His atonement was ACCEPTABLE TO THE FATHER.

Yes, all will be resurrected, but in typical Mormon fashion you see only that portion of it that Mormonism permits you to.

Some are resurrected TO ETERNAL LIFE, others to ETERNAL ****ATION.

Now, how about engaging THAT??

But all are resurrected. Do you believe this would happen without Christ? Will you please define the word ****ation? Thanks.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

But all are resurrected. Do you believe this would happen without Christ? Will you please define the word ****ation? Thanks.

So WHAT?? Yes, it could have happened WITHOUT CHRIST.

I suggest you look up the word, ****ation from a reputable BIBLE dictionary, and not what LD$, Inc. tells you what it means.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

So WHAT?? Yes, it could have happened WITHOUT CHRIST.

I suggest you look up the word, ****ation from a reputable BIBLE dictionary, and not what LD$, Inc. tells you what it means.

That is a pretty big difference in the way you believe and I do. I believe that because Adam partook of the fruit, he was subject to death as are all men born as a result. If it was not for Jesus Christ, I do not believe we could resurrected or overcome any type of death. I see that you believe that your resurrection was not dependent on Christ. This is the reason you and I read Romans differently.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

That is a pretty big difference in the way you believe and I do. I believe that because Adam partook of the fruit, he was subject to as are all men born as a result. If it was not for Jesus Christ, I do not believe we could resurrected or overcome any type of . I see that you believe that your resurrection was not dependent on Christ. This is the reason you and I read Romans differently.

I KNOW what you believe. Your problem is that you can NOT SUPPORT IT FROM THE BIBLE...plain and simple.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

I KNOW what you believe. Your problem is that you can NOT SUPPORT IT FROM THE BIBLE...plain and simple.

You believe there is not Biblical proof that without Christ, we would not be resurrected? Is this really your claim?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You believe there is not Biblical proof that without Christ, we would not be resurrected? Is this really your claim?

Fig had no words so I will come to you.. The promise of the resurrection is part of the OT and there is nothing there to say Jesus resurrection gave us anything but the conformation of God's promise to raise the dead in the Last day.. We receive Justification through the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is given as a free gift to the sinner so the sinner is declared righteous before a Holy God. Sanctification, on the other hand, involves the work of the person. But it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is also the work of God in the lives of Hos children. He and only He makes us holy. These two gifts of God come through The death of Jesus.. The resurrection is a down payment on the promise of God to raise all those who have lived and died.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Fig had no words so I will come to you.. The promise of the resurrection is part of the OT and there is nothing there to say Jesus resurrection gave us anything but the conformation of God's promise to raise the dead in the Last day.. We receive Justification through the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is given as a free gift to the sinner so the sinner is declared righteous before a Holy God. Sanctification, on the other hand, involves the work of the person. But it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is also the work of God in the lives of Hos children. He and only He makes us holy. These two gifts of God come through The death of Jesus.. The resurrection is a down payment on the promise of God to raise all those who have lived and died.. IHS jim

So am I understanding that you also believe that we would be resurrected regardless of Jesus Christ as well?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So am I understanding that you also believe that we would be resurrected regardless of Jesus Christ as well?

I am not sure that I can stand behind such a tradition While there are statements in the Bible that call the bones of men to life (and this is what I was thinking of during this discussion):

Ezek 37:4-5
Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live

However there is also Biblical evidence that all will be made alive though Jesus.. I must be Biblically sound or I am nothing.. I will say that without Jesus the rest of the scripture would not have been fulfilled..

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Father JD is in error on this point.. IHS jim

[Father_JD]

Frankly, I'm shocked by your UNIVERSALISM if I'm understanding you correctly.

Please note the qualifiers:

"In Adam"
"In Christ"

The whole human family is "in Adam".
Only the REDEEMED are "in Christ".

Read

I suggest you go read a good commentary such as Jamieson, Fausset and Brown to disabuse you of your universalistic notions. The "resurrection" in Eze. 37 is strictly metaphorical regarding the recons***ution of the Jewish nation.

Here's what J, F &B sa regarding this verse:

22. in Adam all--in union of nature with Adam, as representative head of mankind in their fall.
in Christ . . . all--in union of nature with Christ, the representative head of mankind in their recovery. The life brought in by Christ is co-extensive with the death brought in by Adam.

Only the Redeemed are "in union of nature with Christ".

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You believe there is not Biblical proof that without Christ, we would not be resurrected? Is this really your claim?

You've used so many negatives, it's very difficult to understand your point. The bible does NOT teach that Jesus' resurrection is CAUSAL for other resurrections. God the Father is more than capable of stating, "Arise" and it's a done deal...with or without Jesus.

The great promise for believers is that we will be resurrected just as Jesus Himself was.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

You've used so many negatives, it's very difficult to understand your point. The bible does NOT teach that Jesus' resurrection is CAUSAL for other resurrections. God the Father is more than capable of stating, "Arise" and it's a done deal...with or without Jesus.

The great promise for believers is that we will be resurrected just as Jesus Himself was.

As I stated before, this is the big difference between your beliefs and mine and why we interpret Romans differently. I did not realize that this plain and precious truth was not obvious in the Bible. Why do you think you cannot overcome spiritual death without Christ, but that you can overcome physical death without him? Why do we call Christ the firstfruit of resurrection?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

As I stated before, this is the big difference between your beliefs and mine and why we interpret Romans differently. I did not realize that this plain and precious truth was not obvious in the Bible. Why do you think you cannot overcome spiritual without Christ, but that you can overcome physical without him? Why do we call Christ the firstfruit of resurrection?

You interpret Romans NOT CONTEXTUALLY, but through the alien foreign lens of Mormon doctrine. Romans is teaching something radically different than what you think.

Christ's atonement negated spiritual , yes. Because Christ lives, we shall live too, hence He is the "firstfruit of resurrection".

What you're not understanding is that from a CAUSAL standpoint, God the Father is more than able to resurrect anyone at anytime.

God chose that Christ should overcome physical on our behalf, but I'm speaking from a different viewpoint regarding God's own OMNIPOTENCE.

Got it now?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

You interpret Romans NOT CONTEXTUALLY, but through the alien foreign lens of Mormon doctrine. Romans is teaching something radically different than what you think.

Christ's atonement negated spiritual , yes. Because Christ lives, we shall live too, hence He is the "firstfruit of resurrection".

What you're not understanding is that from a CAUSAL standpoint, God the Father is more than able to resurrect anyone at anytime.

God chose that Christ should overcome physical on our behalf, but I'm speaking from a different viewpoint regarding God's own OMNIPOTENCE.

Got it now?

So, if I am understanding you correctly, Christ's atonement was not needed to overcome physical death even though God chose Christ to overcome physical death. It could have been, according to you, someone else if God chose it, and therefore, when I read Romans, according to you, the fact that it was Christ that God chose to overcome physical death, I should not in any way use this information to understand Romans because it is an insignificant tidbit of information that really doesn't matter when understanding scripture. In otherwords, even though Christ was chosen to overcome physical death, because it could have been anybody, I should not to any degree use this as part of my understsanding (that it was Christ who overcame physical death) when interpretting scripture and strickly think of Christ overcoming spiritual death only as the other part is insignificant as it could have been anybody? (God being omnipotent, so Christ's role in this is insignificant.) Is this what you are saying?

[Father_JD]

No, you didn't understand correctly. It's NOT a case of "somebody else overcoming physical ", but that God SOVEREIGNLY CHOSE CHRIST to do this. What I'm saying, is based upon the doctrine of God's OMNIPOTENCE, He could resurrect anybody BY HIS SOVEREIGN DECREE.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

No, you didn't understand correctly. It's NOT a case of "somebody else overcoming physical ", but that God SOVEREIGNLY CHOSE CHRIST to do this. What I'm saying, is based upon the doctrine of God's OMNIPOTENCE, He could resurrect anybody BY HIS SOVEREIGN DECREE.

Sorry, I am still not understanding. You seem to be saying that it was not Christ that overcame death (physical) by the power of his atonement, but God the Father whose power overcame death relying nothing on Christ. Is this right?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Sorry, I am still not understanding. You seem to be saying that it was not Christ that overcame (physical) by the power of his atonement, but God the Father whose power overcame relying nothing on Christ. Is this right?

Nope. Didn't say that. Yes, Christ overcame . What I AM merely proposing is that based upon God's OMNIPOTENCE (got it NOW????)

He's more than able to resurrect ANYONE based upon his OMNIPOTENT POWER ALONE.

Got it...Finally??

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Nope. Didn't say that. Yes, Christ overcame . What I AM merely proposing is that based upon God's OMNIPOTENCE (got it NOW????)

He's more than able to resurrect ANYONE based upon his OMNIPOTENT POWER ALONE.

Got it...Finally??

No, I really don't. Who's omnipotent power are we discussing? Christ's?

Okay, so Christ dies on the cross....he goes down to the pit, to unlock the gates of hell....he overcomes death...but chooses another fellow to start the process? Is this what you are inferring, that it didn't have to be him to open the graves? I mean, it could of been him, but he could have started with someone else's body and then followed them? Wouldn't it still be then, Christ, who overcame physical death allowing us all to be resurrected?

Can you give me a case scenario in which you are envisioning, maybe that would help?