Does God respond to Man?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

At last we're getting somewhere!

Of course "justification of life" MEANS ETERNAL LIFE which includes "overcoming PHYSICAL death brought to man by Adam's transgression".

The problem is Mormon underestimation of "Adam's transgression".

You think it means ONLY physical death whereas the Bible clearly teaches it goes WAY beyond physical death to include SPIRITUAL DEATH.

But you don't believe in spiritual death and that's why you can't understand the Book of Romans either.

No, I know that Adam's death meant both physical and spiritual death. I do believe in spiritual death. Do you understand that we spiritually died when we sin? God's justice means that we do not need to pay for Adam's transgression. In Adam all men died, in Christ all are made alive. In other words, our spiritual death is our own doing through sin. On the other hand, our physical death was brought about by Adam. Justice then means that God has undid the sin of Adam and the physical death that was brought to all of us. We will all be resurrected. Do you not believe this?

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. (All will overcome physical death via the resurrection of Christ).

[Father_JD]

No, I know that Adam's death meant both physical and spiritual death. I do believe in spiritual death.

Uh, not according to the Bible's MEANING of the term, BJ. You expose this in the very next sentence:

Do you understand that we spiritually died when we sin?

No, I understand BIBLICALLY that we're BORN INTO SIN. We were physically born DEAD ON ARRIVAL SPIRITUALLY.

Again, your premise is that people are somehow born "neutral" and it's only BY some willful sinning that one THEN spiritually "dies".

The Mormon understanding of "spiritual death" is extremely DEFICIENT, Julie.

God's justice means that we do not need to pay for Adam's transgression. In Adam all men died, in Christ all are made alive. In other words, our spiritual death is our own doing through sin. On the other hand, our physical death was brought about by Adam. Justice then means that God has undid the sin of Adam and the physical death that was brought to all of us. We will all be resurrected. Do you not believe this?

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. (All will overcome physical death via the resurrection of Christ).

Justification to life is NOT talking about physical life/resurrection but is in reference to ETERNAL LIFE, the undoing of SPIRITUAL DEATH.

This has been explained to you several times now, to which you offer no reasoned re****al, but your Mormon-induced belief. Here's a commentary which might shed light on your erroneous understanding of the p***age:


Jamieson, Fausset & Brown Commentary on Romans 5:

19. For, &c.--better, "For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so by the obedience of the One shall the many be made righteous." On this great verse observe: First, By the "obedience" of Christ here is plainly not meant more than what divines call His active obedience, as distinguished from His sufferings and death; it is the entire work of Christ in its obediential character. Our Lord Himself represents even His death as His great act of obedience to the Father: "This commandment (that is, to lay down and resume His life) have I received of My Father" ( Jhn 10:8 ). Second, The significant word twice rendered made, does not signify to work a change upon a person or thing, but to cons***ute or ordain, as will be seen from all the places where it is used. Here, accordingly, it is intended to express that judicial act which holds men, in virtue of their connection with Adam, as sinners; and, in connection with Christ, as righteous. Third, The change of tense from the past to the future--"as through Adam we were made sinners, so through Christ we shall be made righteous"--delightfully expresses the enduring character of the act, and of the economy to which such acts belong, in contrast with the for-ever-past ruin of believers in Adam. (See on JF & B for Ro 6:5). Fourth, The "all men" of Rom 5:18 and the "many" of Rom 5:19 are the same party, though under a slightly different aspect. In the latter case, the contrast is between the one representative (Adam--Christ) and the many whom he represented; in the former case, it is between the one head (Adam--Christ) and the human race, affected for death and life respectively by the actings of that one. Only in this latter case it is the redeemed family of man that is alone in view; it is humanity as actually lost, but also as actually saved, as ruined and recovered. Such as refuse to fall in with the high purpose of God to cons***ute His Son a "second Adam," the Head of a new race, and as impenitent and unbelieving finally perish, have no place in this section of the Epistle, whose sole object is to show how God repairs in the second Adam the evil done by the first. (Thus the doctrine of universal restoration has no place here. Thus too the forced interpretation by which the "justification of all" is made to mean a justification merely in possibility and offer to all, and the "justification of the many" to mean the actual justification of as many as believe [ALFORD, &c.], is completely avoided. And thus the harshness of comparing a whole fallen family with a recovered part is got rid of. However true it be in fact that part of mankind is not saved, this is not the aspect in which the subject is here presented. It is totals that are compared and contrasted; and it is the same total in two successive conditions--namely, the human race as ruined in Adam and recovered in Christ).

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE][QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Uh, not according to the Bible's MEANING of the term, BJ. You expose this in the very next sentence:

No, I understand BIBLICALLY that we're BORN INTO SIN. We were physically born DEAD ON ARRIVAL SPIRITUALLY. Again, your premise is that people are somehow born "neutral" and it's only BY some willful sinning that one THEN spiritually "dies".

We are neutral when we are born or spiritually alive because Christ atoned for the sins of Adam. Therefore, infants who die are not dead spiritually.

The Mormon understanding of "spiritual death" is extremely DEFICIENT, Julie.

The Mormon understanding of spiritual death takes into account the atonement which overcame Adam's sins. If you believe that all men are born spiritually dead, then you must believe that infants who die are dead to God forever.

Justification to life is NOT talking about physical life/resurrection but is in reference to ETERNAL LIFE, the undoing of SPIRITUAL DEATH.

No the justification that is to ALL men is to physical death. God is a just God and therefore, would not have us perish because of the acts of Adam. Therefore, we all will be resurrected. Our spiritual death is our own doing through sin, not because of Adam.

This has been explained to you several times now, to which you offer no reasoned re****al, but your Mormon-induced belief. Here's a commentary which might shed light on your erroneous understanding of the p***age:

Why on earth would I believe the commentary of a bunch of men? I have explained myself well. I read the scriptures as they have been written...I read ALL to mean ALL and MANYto mean MANY. I don't read ALL to mean partial or not all. My way of reading Romans makes way more sense. Your way condemns infants to hell as they are born dead not because of their own sins,but because of Adams and Christ's atonement is of no effect to the sins of Adam. How can God be a just God if he holds us accountable for the sins we have never committed?

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown Commentary on Romans 5:

Fourth, The "all men" of Rom 5:18 and the "many" of Rom 5:19 are the same party, though under a slightly different aspect.

Why on earth did Paul use different words if he meant the same thing? Look at the way they spin this to get the meaning they want. It is quite clear without all the explanation.

You have yet to answer my question...do you believe all will be resurrected or not?

[Father_JD]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father_JD
Uh, not according to the Bible's MEANING of the term, BJ. You expose this in the very next sentence:

No, I understand BIBLICALLY that we're BORN INTO SIN. We were physically born DEAD ON ARRIVAL SPIRITUALLY. Again, your premise is that people are somehow born "neutral" and it's only BY some willful sinning that one THEN spiritually "dies".

We are neutral when we are born or spiritually alive because Christ atoned for the sins of Adam. Therefore, infants who die are not dead spiritually.

Not according to the Bible:

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

It's NOT referring to the sex act as "sinful" but that we are BORN INTO A SINFUL CONDITION.

Now instead of offering yet more Mormon belief, ADDRESS this verse.

Quote:
The Mormon understanding of "spiritual death" is extremely DEFICIENT, Julie.

The Mormon understanding of spiritual death takes into account the atonement which overcame Adam's sins. If you believe that all men are born spiritually dead, then you must believe that infants who die are dead to God forever.

The atonement's efficacy of overcoming spiritual death is FOR THE REDEEMED AND ONLY THE REDEEMED. NOT for mankind in general!! Infants are in God's hands one way or another. We can INFER from some texts that GRACE is applied to them should they die in infancy.



Quote:
Justification to life is NOT talking about physical life/resurrection but is in reference to ETERNAL LIFE, the undoing of SPIRITUAL DEATH.

No the justification that is to ALL men is to physical death. God is a just God and therefore, would not have us perish because of the acts of Adam. Therefore, we all will be resurrected. Our spiritual death is our own doing through sin, not because of Adam.

That's your Mormon opinion, it just doesn't MEASURE up to what scripture teaches: Justification does NOT REFER TO PHYSICAL DEATH, but to be declared forensically INNOCENT in the spiritual sense.


Quote:
This has been explained to you several times now, to which you offer no reasoned re****al, but your Mormon-induced belief. Here's a commentary which might shed light on your erroneous understanding of the p***age:

Why on earth would I believe the commentary of a bunch of men?

Uh, how about because they KNOW the Bible a heck of a lot better than you?????

I have explained myself well. I read the scriptures as they have been written...I read ALL to mean ALL and MANYto mean MANY. I don't read ALL to mean partial or not all. My way of reading Romans makes way more sense. Your way condemns infants to hell as they are born dead not because of their own sins,but because of Adams and Christ's atonement is of no effect to the sins of Adam. How can God be a just God if he holds us accountable for the sins we have never committed?

No, the Bible's way does NOT condemn infants to hell...this is your straw-man argument based upon your erroneous understanding of THE FALL. We ARE held accountable for the sins we commit...so who said anything about sins "never committed". As typical, you REFUSE to engage your OWN condition, but instead prefer to bring up either the hypothetical "pygmy in Africa" or the dead infant scenario as if this answers YOUR dilemma.


Quote:
Jamieson, Fausset & Brown Commentary on Romans 5:

Fourth, The "all men" of Rom 5:18 and the "many" of Rom 5:19 are the same party, though under a slightly different aspect.

Why on earth did Paul use different words if he meant the same thing? Look at the way they spin this to get the meaning they want. It is quite clear without all the explanation.

It's BASED UPON OTHER SCRIPTURES and in comparison one with the other. It's Mormons who REFUSE to read the Bible in CONTEXT, but prefer instead to pull out individual verses OUT OF CONTEXT which you think support Mormon conditions.

You have yet to answer my question...do you believe all will be resurrected or not?

I've answered this several times:

The Redeemed are RESURRECTED UNTO ETERNAL LIFE.
The ****ed are RESURRECTED UNTO ETERNAL DEATH.

Got it now?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father_JD
Uh, not according to the Bible's MEANING of the term, BJ. You expose this in the very next sentence:

No, I understand BIBLICALLY that we're BORN INTO SIN. We were physically born DEAD ON ARRIVAL SPIRITUALLY. Again, your premise is that people are somehow born "neutral" and it's only BY some willful sinning that one THEN spiritually "dies".

Then according to you, the atonement has no affect.

Not according to the Bible:

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This verse makes Romans 5 so important. David could say, in sin I was conceived, but because of the atonemen of Christ, the sin of Adam is erased and I am free to choose for myself eternal life or eternal death. Of course, the atonement hadn't happened yet, so imagine the rejoicing when Paul explained that Christ had given all a clean slate to start with.

It's NOT referring to the sex act as "sinful" but that we are BORN INTO A SINFUL CONDITION.

Now instead of offering yet more Mormon belief, ADDRESS this verse.

I did.

Quote:
The Mormon understanding of "spiritual death" is extremely DEFICIENT, Julie.

The Mormon understanding of spiritual death doesn't just look at the effects of Adam on sin, but the effects of Christ on life.

The atonement's efficacy of overcoming spiritual death is FOR THE REDEEMED AND ONLY THE REDEEMED. NOT for mankind in general!! Infants are in God's hands one way or another. We can INFER from some texts that GRACE is applied to them should they die in infancy.

Then to you, only the redeemed should be resurrected. But all are, and there lies your problem. As grace is applied to infants, it is applied to all men---why do infants get this grace and all men don't? Because men are capable of bringing about their own spiritual death by their own choices. Infants on the other hand, have never had the ability to accept Christ and therefore are not held accountable for something he have never been able to do, namely sin. There is no INFERING if you understand Romans 5 about infants----there is sure knowledge that they are not held accountable for the sins of Adam.

Quote:
Justification to life is NOT talking about physical life/resurrection but is in reference to ETERNAL LIFE, the undoing of SPIRITUAL DEATH.

No it is not. If that was the case, it would not say ALL men. All men will be resurrected, but only some man will take that opportunity given by Christ, the cleaning of the slate, to have eternal life.

That's your Mormon opinion, it just doesn't MEASURE up to what scripture teaches: Justification does NOT REFER TO PHYSICAL DEATH, but to be declared forensically INNOCENT in the spiritual sense.

My Mormon oppinion is the truth. Your opinion leaves infants being inferred to God's grace. I read it as it states, ALL means ALL and many means many...your have a bunch of scholars who haven't got accountabity figured out and so they make it fit their thinking rather than just reading the words.

Quote:
This has been explained to you several times now, to which you offer no reasoned re****al, but your Mormon-induced belief. Here's a commentary which might shed light on your erroneous understanding of the p***age:

You keep going to commentaries. Just read the p***age. It makes perfect sense. I don't need light to be shed on the perfect light already given in the gospel. Your explanation leaves us in the dark as to infants. Do you think God would be so cruel to young parents who have lost a child as to leave them INFERRING what will happen to their baby? Don't lecture me about my Mormon-induced belief. Your corrupt men induced belief shreds the love of God into something that has to be INFERRED.

Uh, how about because they KNOW the Bible a heck of a lot better than you?????

I know the Holy Ghost and that superceeds what any man says.

No, the Bible's way does NOT condemn infants to hell...this is your straw-man argument based upon your erroneous understanding of THE FALL. We ARE held accountable for the sins we commit...so who said anything about sins "never committed". As typical, you REFUSE to engage your OWN condition, but instead prefer to bring up either the hypothetical "pygmy in Africa" or the dead infant scenario as if this answers YOUR dilemma.

Wait a minute...first you say that the well being of infants can be INFERRED that some type of grace applies. Now you are saying that we are only held accountable for the sins we commit---but before you were saying that we are held accountable for the sins Adam committed---remember, being conceived in sin stuff? You were the one who talked about sins never committed because you are the one insisting that we are born spiritually dead and that life is only given to those Christ choses to redeem. To me, Romans explains how the sin of Adam is overcome and life is again given to all men---it is now up to them whether or not they sin and cause ****ation for ourselves. I thought you whole argument is that we are born ****ed (in a sinful state) because of the sin of Adam? Which one is it? Did Christ overcome this sin of Adam for all men or not?

It's BASED UPON OTHER SCRIPTURES and in comparison one with the other. It's Mormons who REFUSE to read the Bible in CONTEXT, but prefer instead to pull out individual verses OUT OF CONTEXT which you think support Mormon conditions.

I read the Bible as is, which is why I do not need to go to a commentary to explain it. I just repeat what it says.

I've answered this several times:

The Redeemed are RESURRECTED UNTO ETERNAL LIFE.
The ****ed are RESURRECTED UNTO ETERNAL DEATH.

Got it now?

[/QUOTE] Eternal ****ation---when did eternal ****ation turn into eternal death?

So, you agree that all are resurrected? How and why? Wasn't the promise to Adam death (both spiritual and physical) came into the world because of his sin? How was that overcome physically?