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  1. #1
    Father_JD
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    Default Part II

    4. Special Uses:

    A few special uses of the word may be noted. That the special blessing of God on a particular undertaking (Ac 14:26; 15:40) should be called a "grace" needs no explanation. In Lu 6:32-34, and 1Pe 2:19,20, charis seems to be used in the sense of "that which deserves the thanks of God," i.e. a specifically Christian act as distinguished from an act of "natural morality." "Grace for grace" in Joh 1:16 is a difficult phrase, but an almost exact parallel in Philo (Poster. Cain, 43) may fix the sense as "benefit on benefit." But the tendency of the New Testament writers is to combine the various meanings the word can have, something that is particularly well illustrated in 2Co 8; 9. In these two chapters the word occurs 10 t, but in so many different senses as to suggest that Paul is consciously playing with the term. Charis is the money given to the Jerusalemites by the Corinthians (2Co 8:19), it is the increase of goods that God will grant the Corinthians (2Co 9:8), it is the disposition of the givers (2Co 8:6), it is the power of God that has wrought this disposition (2Co 8:1; 9:14), it is the act of Christ in the Incarnation (2Co 8:9; contrast the distinction between "God’s grace" and "Christs act" in Heb 2:9), it is the thanks that Paul renders (2Co 9:15). That all a Christian is and all that he has is God’s gift could have been stated of course without the use of any special term at all. But in these two chapters Paul has taught this truth by using for the various ideas always the same term and by referring this term to God at the beginning and the end of the section. That is, to the multiplicity of concepts there is given a unity of terminology, corresponding to the unity given the multiple aspects of life by the thought of entire dependence on God. So charis, "grace," becomes almost an equivalent for "Christianity," viewed as the religion of dependence on God through Christ. As one may think of entering Christianity, abiding in it, or falling from it, so one may speak of entering into (Ro 5:2), abiding in (Ac 13:43), or falling from (Ga 5:4) grace; compare 1Pe 5:12. So the teaching of Christianity may be summed up as word or gospel of grace (Ac 14:3; 20:24,32). So "grace be with you" closes the Epistles as a sufficient summary of all the blessings that can be wished Christian readers. At the beginning of the Epistles the words "and peace" are usually added, but this is due only to the influence of the Jewish greeting "peace be with you" (Lu 10:5, etc.), and not to any reflection on "grace" and "peace" as separate things. (It is possible that the Greek use of chairein, "rejoice," as an epistolary salutation (so in Jas 1:1) influenced the Christian use of charis. But that "grace and peace" was consciously regarded as a universalistic combination of Jewish and Gentilecustom is altogether unlikely.) The further expansion of the introductory formula by the introduction of "mercy" in 1 and 2Ti is quite without theological significance.

    5. Teaching of Christ:

    In the Greek Gospels, charis is used in the words of Christ only in Lu 6:32-34; 17:9. As Christ spoke in Aram, the choice of this word is due to Luke, probably under the influence of its common Christian use in his own day. And there is no word in our Lord’s recorded sayings that suggests that He employed habitually any especial term to denote grace in any of its senses. But the ideas are unambiguously present. That the pardon of sins is a free act on God’s part may be described as an essential in Christ’s teaching, and the lesson is taught in all manner of ways. The prodigal knowing only his own wretchedness (Lu 15:20), the publican without merit to urge (Lu 18:13), the sick who need a physician (Mr 2:17), they who hunger and thirst after righteousness (Mt 5:6), these are the ones for whom God’s pardon is inexhaustible. And positive blessings, be they temporal or spiritual, are to be looked for from God, with perfect trust in Him who clothes the lilies and knows how to give good gifts to His children (Mt 7:11; here Lu 11:13 has "Holy Spirit" for "gifts," doubtless a Lukan interpretation, but certainly a correct one). Indeed, it is not too much to say that Christ knows but one unpardonable sin, the sin of spiritual self-satisfaction—"That which is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God" (Lu 16:15; compare Lu 17:7-10; Mt 20:1-16).

    6. In the Old Testament:

    There is no word in Hebrew that can represent all the meanings of charis, and in the Septuagint charis itself is used, practically, only as a translation of the Hebrew chen, "favor," this restriction of meaning being due to the desire to represent the same Hebrew word by the same Greek word as far as possible. And chen, in turn, is used chiefly only in the phrase "find favor" (Ge 6:8, etc.), whether the reference is to God or men, and without theological importance. Much nearer Paul’s use of charis is ratson, "acceptance," in such p***ages as Isa 60:10, "In my favor have I had mercy on thee"; Ps 44:3, "not .... by their own sword .... but .... because thou wast favorable unto them." Perhaps still closer parallels can be detected in the use of checedh, "kindness," "mercy," as in Ex 20:6, etc. But, of course, a limitation of the sources for the doctrine to p***ages containing only certain words would be altogether unjust. The main lines seem to be these:

    (1) Technically, salvation by grace in the New Testament is opposed to an Old Testament doctrine of salvation by works (Ro 4:4; 11:6), or, what is the same thing, by law (Ro 6:14; Joh 1:17); i.e men and God are thought of as parties to a contract, to be fulfilled by each independently. Most of the legislation seems to presuppose some idea of man as a quan***y quite outside of God, while De 30:11-14 states explicitly that the law is not too hard nor too far off for man.

    (2) Yet even this legalism is not without important modifications. The keeping of the law is man’s work, but that man has the law to keep is something for which God only is to be thanked. Ps 119 is the essence of legalism, but the writer feels overwhelmed throughout by the greatness of the mercy that disclosed such statutes to men. After all, the initial (and vital!) act is God’s not man’s. This is stated most sharply in Eze 23:1-4—Oholibah and her sister became God’s, not because of any virtue in them, but in spite of most revolting conduct. Compare De 7:7, etc.

    (3) But even in the most legalistic p***ages, an absolute literal keeping of the law is never (not even in such a p***age as Nu 15:30,31) made a condition of salvation. The thought of transgression is at all times tempered with the thought of God’s pardon. The whole sacrificial system, in so far as it is expiatory, rests on God’s gracious acceptance of something in place of legal obedience, while the p***ages that offer God’s mercy without demanding even a sacrifice (Isa 1:18; Mic 7:18-20, etc.) are countless. Indeed, in Eze 16; 20; 23, mercy is promised to a nation that is spoken of as hardly even desiring it, a most extreme instance.

    (4) But a mere negative granting of pardon is a most deficient definition of the Old Testament idea of God’s mercy, which delights in conferring positive benefits. The gift to Abraham of the land of Canaan, liberation from Egypt, food in the wilderness, salvation from enemies, deliverance from exile—all of Israel’s history can be felt to be the record of what God did for His people through no duty or compulsion, grateful thanksgiving for such unmerited blessings filling, for instance, much of the Psalter. The hearts of men are in God’s keeping, to receive from Him the impulse toward what is right (1Ch 29:18, etc.). And the promise is made that the God who has manifested Himself as a forgiving Father will in due time take hold of His children to work in them actual righteousness (Isa 1:26; 4:3,1; 32:1-8; 33:24; Jer 31:33,14; Eze 36:25,26; Zec 8; Da 9:24; Ps 51:10-12) With this promise—for the Old Testament always a matter of the future—the Old Testament teaching p***es into that of the New Testament.

    7. Summary:

    (The following is the most typical error of Mormon hermeneutics!!!)

    Most of the discussions of the Biblical doctrine of grace have been faulty in narrowing the meaning of "grace" to some special sense, and then endeavoring to force this special sense on all the Biblical p***ages. For instance, Roman scholars, starting with the meaning of the word in (say) 2Co 12:9, have made Ro 3:24 state that men are justified by the infusion of Divine holiness into them, an interpretation that utterly ruins Paul’s argument. On the other hand, Protestant extremists have tried to reverse the process and have argued that grace cannot mean anything except favor as an at***ude, with results that are equally disastrous from the exegetical standpoint. And a confusion has resulted that has prevented men from seeing that most of the controversies about grace are at cross-purposes. A rigid definition is hardly possible, but still a single conception is actually present in almost every case where "grace" is found—the conception that all a Christian has or is, is centered exclusively in God and Christ, and depends utterly on God through Christ. The kingdom of heaven is reserved for those who become as little children, for those who look to their Father in loving confidence for every benefit, whether it be for the pardon so freely given, or for the strength that comes from Him who works in them both to will and to do.

    LITERATURE.

    All the Biblical theologies contain full discussions of the subject; for the New Testament the closest definitions are given by Bernard Weiss. But for the meaning of "grace" in any particular place the commentaries must be consulted, although the student may be warned against discussions that argue too closely from what may seem to be parallel p***ages.


    Written by Burton Scott Easton
    Last edited by Father_JD; 05-27-2009 at 02:35 PM.

  2. #2
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    Father JD, I couldn't help but smile with you post..it reminded me of when I was trying to explain my beliefs and this was the reply I received:

    Have you ever heard this statement, "the simplicity of the Gospel?" I am sorry, but your explanation is quite complicated to say the least. I do not fault you BigJulie, for obviously this is what you have been taught, and this is what you believe, and I respect that.

  3. #3
    dfoJC
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    So nice to be remembered...

    with kind regards,
    dfoJC

  4. #4
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Father JD, I couldn't help but smile with you post..it reminded me of when I was trying to explain my beliefs and this was the reply I received:

    The one and only TRUE Gospel IS simple:

    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be SAVED".


    The contextually-nuanced meanings of "grace" and "faith" are not necessarily simple.

  5. #5
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father JD
    ...
    Written by Burton Scott Easton
    No where does Mr. Easton answer the question: Does God respond to Man?

    Nowhere does Mr. Easton ***ert that the gifts of Grace and Faith are NOT examples of God responding to Man.

  6. #6
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    No where does Mr. Easton answer the question: Does God respond to Man?

    Nowhere does Mr. Easton ***ert that the gifts of Grace and Faith are NOT examples of God responding to Man.

    Uh, you missed the whole point as usual, figster:

    "Grace" has MULTIPLE MEANINGS.

    "Faith" has MULITPLE MEANINGS. ( Which I haven't posted yet, waiting for you to settle on your skewed Mormon meaning of "grace".)

    The question IS:

    What do YOU mean by "grace" or "faith"?????

    There are examples where one particular usage of "grace" appears to demonstrate that GOD RESPONDS TO MAN.

    Got it now??

  7. #7
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Uh, you missed the whole point as usual, figster:

    "Grace" has MULTIPLE MEANINGS.

    "Faith" has MULITPLE MEANINGS. ( Which I haven't posted yet, waiting for you to settle on your skewed Mormon meaning of "grace".)

    The question IS:

    What do YOU mean by "grace" or "faith"?????

    There are examples where one particular usage of "grace" appears to demonstrate that GOD RESPONDS TO MAN.

    Got it now??
    The problem is you don't understand the simple question.

    The question is not about the definition of grace and faith. It is about God.

    Got it now???

    Marvin

  8. #8
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    The problem is you don't understand the simple question.

    The question is not about the definition of grace and faith. It is about God.

    Got it now???

    Marvin
    No, I'm afraid YOU don't get it, Marvin. Figgie's challenge is based upon his narrowistic Mormon "understanding" of the words.

    I'm merely asking Figge exactly WHAT does he mean by "grace" or "faith".

    The answer as to "whether God responds to man regarding grace and faith" is completely dependent upon this.

  9. #9
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    The answer as to "whether God responds to man regarding grace and faith" is completely dependent upon this.
    Why?

    The question is a simple one and if you need to give a 20,000 word answer you can. Just answer the question, and provide all the qualifications you want to.

    I'm waiting.

    You have 3 options:

    God NEVER responds to Man

    God ALWAYS responds to Man

    Only in certain cases does God respond to Man.

    You seem to be leaning to no. 3. So explain.
    Last edited by Fig-bearing Thistle; 05-29-2009 at 07:28 PM.

  10. #10
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Why?

    The question is a simple one and if you need to give a 20,000 word answer you can. Just answer the question, and provide all the qualifications you want to.

    I'm waiting.

    You have 3 options:

    God NEVER responds to Man

    God ALWAYS responds to Man

    Only in certain cases does God respond to Man.

    You seem to be leaning to no. 3. So explain.

    That is NOT what you asked in your OP:


    What proof can JD and others provide that prove that the gift of Grace and Faith is NOT a RESPONSE from God to Man for the choices Mankind makes, and actions he undertakes.

    Therefore I ask you, "What do you MEAN by 'the gift of Grace and Faith'?????"

    You've equivocated your OWN QUESTION from "the gift of Grace and Faith" to that of a generic, "Does God respond to man's choices or actions"???

    I'm more than happy to answer that: Of course he does. That's WHY you stand condemned by the REAL Christ of the Bible for your CHOICES:

    Trusting in a FALSE GOD
    Trusting in a FALSE CHRIST
    Trusting in a FALSE GOSPEL
    Trusting in FALSE PROPHETS.

    You are an idolator figgie of the first rank.

    Now...do you want to stop equivocating your own questions or what???
    Last edited by Father_JD; 05-30-2009 at 11:11 AM.

  11. #11
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    That is NOT what you asked in your OP:


    What proof can JD and others provide that prove that the gift of Grace and Faith is NOT a RESPONSE from God to Man for the choices Mankind makes, and actions he undertakes.

    Therefore I ask you, "What do you MEAN by 'the gift of Grace and Faith'?????"

    You've equivocated your OWN QUESTION from "the gift of Grace and Faith" to that of a generic, "Does God respond to man's choices or actions"???

    I'm more than happy to answer that: Of course he does. That's WHY you stand condemned by the REAL Christ of the Bible for your CHOICES:

    Trusting in a FALSE GOD
    Trusting in a FALSE CHRIST
    Trusting in a FALSE GOSPEL
    Trusting in FALSE PROPHETS.

    You are an idolator figgie of the first rank.

    Now...do you want to stop equivocating your own questions or what???
    The question headline was "Does God respond to Man?"

    What do I mean by the gift of faith and grace? Here, Read your Bible.

    Your childish ranting aside, Do you believe God gives his gifts in response to man, or not?
    Last edited by Fig-bearing Thistle; 05-30-2009 at 02:02 PM.

  12. #12
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    The question headline was "Does God respond to Man?"
    And THEN you qualified it by GIFT OF GRACE AND FAITH. Do you not know what you wrote, figgie??? Why do you persist in your games?


    What do I mean by the gift of faith and grace? Here, Read your Bible.

    Your childish ranting aside, Do you believe God gives his gifts in response to man, or not?
    And what does John 15 have to do with this?? Enlighen me.


    IF you mean does God give gifts in response as some kind of "reward", NO, God does NOT give "gifts" that MUST BE EARNED BY WORKS RIGHTEOUENESS.

    You're playing your little juvenile word games, Figgster, refusing to DEFINE your terms in hopes of trapping anyone who deigns to play your little Mormon reindeer games.

  13. #13
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    And THEN you qualified it by GIFT OF GRACE AND FAITH. Do you not know what you wrote, figgie??? Why do you persist in your games?




    And what does John 15 have to do with this?? Enlighen me.
    You pretend to understand grace and can't see a tie in here? Amazing.

    So why can't a gift be given in response to something the receive has done?

  14. #14
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    You pretend to understand grace and can't see a tie in here? Amazing.

    So why can't a gift be given in response to something the receive has done?

    Duh. Because "gifts" by NATURE, by DEFINITION are NOT EARNED, figgie. And you pretend to understand grace and can't see how you've equivocated the meaning of the term here? Amazing.

  15. #15
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Duh. Because "gifts" by NATURE, by DEFINITION are NOT EARNED, figgie. And you pretend to understand grace and can't see how you've equivocated the meaning of the term here? Amazing.
    So, JD, your conclusion appears to be that God does not respond to man.

    And that is a huge reason why I tell people to "Just say NO to hyper-Calvinism."

  16. #16
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    So, JD, your conclusion appears to be that God does not respond to man.
    Nope. Didn't say that Figgie and I suggest you actually READ responses before answering. God DOES respond to man in many ways. Does He REWARD people with salvivic grace and faith in "response" to man's choices and actions...to that I heartily say, NO because the BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THIS.

    You have to re-define Biblical terms...equivocate them to make them conform to Mormon dogma.

    And that is a huge reason why I tell people to "Just say NO to hyper-Calvinism."
    And I heartily AGREE for everyone to say NO to HYPER-Calvinism as well.

    (Hint...you have no idea what Calvinism is or it's perverted form of it do you??)

  17. #17
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Nope. Didn't say that Figgie and I suggest you actually READ responses before answering. God DOES respond to man in many ways. Does He REWARD people with salvivic grace and faith in "response" to man's choices and actions...to that I heartily say, NO because the BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THIS.
    Does God GRANT people salvific grace and faith in "response" to individuals in any way shape or form?

    What about the gift of 'additional' grace, and the gift of 'additional' faith. Are these given in any way at all as a response from God to Man?
    Last edited by Fig-bearing Thistle; 06-01-2009 at 08:29 AM.

  18. #18
    Father_JD
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    Does God GRANT people salvific grace and faith in "response" to individuals in any way shape or form?
    NO, no, and no!

    What about the gift of 'additional' grace, and the gift of 'additional' faith. Are these given in any way at all as a response from God to Man?

    Finally we're getting some where. This is WHY I posted a lengthy article on the DIFFERENT MEANINGS OF "GRACE".

    So YES, God does respond to the REGENERATE Christian with MORE grace, etc. This is CLEAR from the article I provided.

  19. #19
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    NO, no, and no!




    Finally we're getting some where. This is WHY I posted a lengthy article on the DIFFERENT MEANINGS OF "GRACE".

    So YES, God does respond to the REGENERATE Christian with MORE grace, etc. This is CLEAR from the article I provided.
    Is Regeneration a choice belonging to Man?

  20. #20
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Is Regeneration a choice belonging to Man?

    No, Figgie. Read Romans 9 until it sinks in, wouldja??

  21. #21
    PostTribber
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    Default you bet'cha God responds!

    "I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth." (Genesis 7:4)

  22. #22
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    No, I'm afraid YOU don't get it, Marvin. Figgie's challenge is based upon his narrowistic Mormon "understanding" of the words.

    I'm merely asking Figge exactly WHAT does he mean by "grace" or "faith".

    The answer as to "whether God responds to man regarding grace and faith" is completely dependent upon this.
    Figbthistle never talked about what grace and faith were. His question asks nothing about definitions. You seem to be attempting to cloud the issue by asking irrelevant questions.

    The question is about why God does something. Doesn't matter what the definition of grace and faith are. The question is about God.

    Now can you answer the question or are you going to prove you don't have a clue?

    Marvin

  23. #23
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    Figbthistle never talked about what grace and faith were. His question asks nothing about definitions. You seem to be attempting to cloud the issue by asking irrelevant questions.

    The question is about why God does something. Doesn't matter what the definition of grace and faith are. The question is about God.

    Now can you answer the question or are you going to prove you don't have a clue?

    Marvin
    That's just it, and NO you still don't get it. Figgie asked, "Does God respond to man's actions with GRACE AND FAITH?"

    I therefore ask, "What do you MEAN by 'grace' and 'faith'??"

    The answer is DEPENDENT UPON THE DEFINITIONS.

    Got it...finally?????????????????????

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