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Thread: Does God respond to Man?

  1. #26
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berean View Post
    Ah, Fig, what's the matter, you don't like those "plain and precious truths" from the Bible that state that you are born a sinner, dead in your sins and unable ON YOUR OWN FIRST to please God? That's what happens when you put your eternal destiny in what a 14 year-old farm boy from New York supposedly said when he decided to redefine Bible doctrines.

    I didn't say that God doesn't respond to man. You need to pay attention. I'm saying that God gives mankind the ability to believe (Romans 1; Phil 1:29). If one prays to God and they haven't acted on that faith that has been given him bringing conviction, repentance and receiving the Son, then God the Father has no obligation to hear that person. When mankind acts on that belief that God has given him and believes on the Savior, then God gives the gift of eternal life. It's really very simple. God is not asleep somewhere waiting on man to make his move FIRST, then He does something. God has already moved - FIRST. You've been given the ability to believe and have decided to follow the "jesus" and god of Joseph Smith's imagination instead of the Christ and God of the Bible. You've also been made accountable for your heresy by being here on this forum where faithful Christians witness to you out of gra***ude for what the Savior has done for them (that's called "works" - Christians believe in works and do it too - not because they have to, but because they want to...big difference) and if you continue to put your faith in the fictional "jesus" of Mormonism and your god that is an exalted man living near a star called Kolob, then you will be judged for that too. You have no excuse (Romans 1:20).

    Your "straw man" question in trying to be clever has only worked against you. Also, have you given TOTAL EFFORT for LDS grace? Yeah, I guess not. Where does that leave you? I guess still running the Mormon "hamster wheel" going nowhere. Nope, not everybody is going to make it to the real heaven as taught in the Bible. It's a narrow road and only few will go there. Most are headed for outer darkness (Matthew 7:13-14). You don't like it? Take it up with the Savior at the judgement. It's time to crawl out of your Mormon comfort zone and face the reality of where you stand according to the Bible: LOST.
    OK. I happen to agree but would add that God gives all mankind the ability to believe, not just some?

    So, then what?

    Depending on what man does with this ability to believe, does God respond to Man? If you say "yes" then we agree (thus far.)

  2. #27
    Berean
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    OK. I happen to agree but would add that God gives all mankind the ability to believe, not just some?

    So, then what?

    Depending on what man does with this ability to believe, does God respond to Man? If you say "yes" then we agree (thus far.)
    For the record, I'm not a 5-pointer (Calvinist) and I'm certainly no hyper-Calvinist. That group can't explain to me why they "sit on their hands" when Christ made it clear in the Great Commission of Matthew 28 what believers are to do. You won't see hyper-Calvinists here anyway. They don't bother talking to Mormons - well, they don't bother talking to anyone...pretty lazy and not Scripturally supported.

    To answer your question, all I can simply do is point to Romans 1:19-20 and say that God has made it obvious to all of creation who He is and has given people a measure of faith to believe. If not, then what He said in verse 20 "they are without excuse" would not hold up and we know that God cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18).

    The vast majority of people will not act on that measure of faith given to them. In John 1:9 Christ gives light to every man. This does not mean universal salvation or general revelation or even inner illumination. Instead, it means that Christ as the Light shines on each person either in salvation or in illuminating him with regard to his sin and coming judgement. Matthew 7:13-14 is clear when it says that most people are going to choose the "broad road" and head off to outer darkness. Is this what God wants? Absolutely not! See 2 Peter 3:9 and Ezekial 18:23 & 32.

    When man, who is dead in his sins because he is born with a sin nature, acts on the faith and the ability to believe that was given to him by the Father, then YES, God will respond! If not, then why did the Son even come here?God hears the prayer of a repentant sinner who is acting on that measure of faith and putting their trust in His Son. God has already moved FIRST. Mankind has to respond with that faith. Next, God moves again (LAST) and gives man that gift of eternal life for acting on that faith by placing it in the Son. Again, it's all about God the Father and God the Son/Jesus. For us to put ourselves anywhere in the equation for our efforts in any regard is to downplay what God did for us FIRST and LAST (I'm not equating this with Isaiah 44:6).

    I hope that makes sense.

  3. #28
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Berean View Post
    [

    The God of the Bible can do whatever He wants. He is not bound by man's dictates. God will give eternal life to those that put their total faith in Christ and trusting him to completely do for him/her TOTALLY what they could not do for themselves which is gain acceptance and reconciliation of the Father thus the need for Christ to atone for our sins.
    In all of your post, I could have not said it better myself. God will give eternal life to those that put their total faith in Christ and trusting him...

    Yes, I agree. This is what I call turning our will over to God and trusting him to do what we cannot...to me that is what faith is. Do you find that you turn your will to him with absolutely no effort, or do you need to rely on him to help you overcome your own will? Mormons dont' believe you can sit back and do nothing in this process. They believe that one must turn over their will and that this takes a full committment and effort on one's part. Is your experience any different? Do you just say, God, take over and never find yourself struggling to give up total control of your life? When Christ asked the rich young ruler to give up everything he had and follow him, why didn't the rich young ruler do it...was it Christ's fault for not regenerating him or his own for not being willing to make the effort?

    I must admit, I think people are so brainwashed about what Mormons believe, that they don't actually listen to we are saying. If you listen to your own words, you will see that you also believe that you must put your total faith in Christ---that is what I was saying and that is what we as Mormons believe as well.
    Last edited by BigJulie; 05-31-2009 at 12:13 AM.

  4. #29
    Berean
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    [QUOTE=BigJulie;17723]

    In all of your post, I could have not said it better myself. God will give eternal life to those that put their total faith in Christ and trusting him...

    Yes, I agree. This is what I call turning our will over to God and trusting him to do what we cannot...to me that is what faith is. Do you find that you turn your will to him with absolutely no effort, or do you need to rely on him to help you overcome your own will? Mormons dont' believe you can sit back and do nothing in this process. They believe that one must turn over their will and that this takes a full committment and effort on one's part. Is your experience any different? Do you just say, God, take over and never find yourself struggling to give up total control of your life? When Christ asked the rich young ruler to give up everything he had and follow him, why didn't the rich young ruler do it...was it Christ's fault for not regenerating him or his own for not being willing to make the effort?

    I must admit, I think people are so brainwashed about what Mormons believe, that they don't actually listen to we are saying. If you listen to your own words, you will see that you also believe that you must put your total faith in Christ---that is what I was saying and that is what we as Mormons believe as well.
    Julie,

    I'm reading what you are saying and I've listened personally to Mormons in discussions to what they are saying. Here's the problem: you don't speak for church, you have no authority to speak for the General Authorities (they won't engage non-Mormons in discussions so I guess church members have no choice but to do it themselves) and much of what I hear is not official doctrines and teachings of your church. Most of the Mormons I know have lately been creating their own form of individual hybrid Mormonism. This is not Julieonism - it's Mormonism.

    No, the only ones that are brainwashed, unfortunately, are our precious Mormon friends that have bought into the gospel, god and jesus of Joseph Smith's creation and imagination. They have blindly accepted what he told them in trusting in their feelings to determine truth (D&C 9 - burning of the bosom) instead of trusting what the real God has already said is truth. They have prayed about a book (Book of Mormon) that Joseph Smith used to translate by using a seer stone that he placed in his hat in which he was given the words. I'll be happy to give you the references if you are ignorant of this fact. The latest Mormon to acknowledge this fact was Mormo apostle Russell Nelson.

    Yes, God can do whatever He wants, BUT HE WILL NOT violate His word. There are some things that God cannot do. He cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18). He will also not change (Malachi 3:6). Christianity doesn't put God in a box and tell Him that He cannot speak anymore. This is another misconception by Mormons. They think Christians don't believe in further revelation. God can do and say whatever He wants at anytime. I am not about to put limits on omnipotent, omniscient God.

    This thread topic isn't much about "will", it's all about grace and faith. We also aren't talking about works. Christianity believes in works and we are all about it, but it's a by-product of a saving grace and faith that has already taken place. Mormons put the cart of good works before the horse of grace. Why do I say this? Mormons have things they have to do BEFORE they can get grace from their "jesus". According to Moroni 10:32 they must:

    1. Be perfected in him
    2. Deny themselves of ALL ungodliness
    3. Love God with all your might, might and strength

    "THEN is his grace sufficient for you". Have you done this? Do you know any Mormon who has ever done this?

    Again, the LDS defintion of grace on page 697 in the back of the Bible says that "total effort" must be given to receive grace. You don't see that theology in the Bible. Grace is unmerited favor. There is nothing you can do in any way on your own to be worthy or work for grace. You were given grace since the beginning of time. Christianity doesn't have a checklist of what we have to do to get grace. You can't earn grace. As long as you confuse grace or faith with works that are done after the fact, you won't understand this.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    So, JD, your conclusion appears to be that God does not respond to man.
    Nope. Didn't say that Figgie and I suggest you actually READ responses before answering. God DOES respond to man in many ways. Does He REWARD people with salvivic grace and faith in "response" to man's choices and actions...to that I heartily say, NO because the BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THIS.

    You have to re-define Biblical terms...equivocate them to make them conform to Mormon dogma.

    And that is a huge reason why I tell people to "Just say NO to hyper-Calvinism."
    And I heartily AGREE for everyone to say NO to HYPER-Calvinism as well.

    (Hint...you have no idea what Calvinism is or it's perverted form of it do you??)

  6. #31
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berean View Post
    For the record, I'm not a 5-pointer (Calvinist) and I'm certainly no hyper-Calvinist. That group can't explain to me why they "sit on their hands" when Christ made it clear in the Great Commission of Matthew 28 what believers are to do. You won't see hyper-Calvinists here anyway. They don't bother talking to Mormons - well, they don't bother talking to anyone...pretty lazy and not Scripturally supported.

    To answer your question, all I can simply do is point to Romans 1:19-20 and say that God has made it obvious to all of creation who He is and has given people a measure of faith to believe. If not, then what He said in verse 20 "they are without excuse" would not hold up and we know that God cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18).

    The vast majority of people will not act on that measure of faith given to them. In John 1:9 Christ gives light to every man. This does not mean universal salvation or general revelation or even inner illumination. Instead, it means that Christ as the Light shines on each person either in salvation or in illuminating him with regard to his sin and coming judgement. Matthew 7:13-14 is clear when it says that most people are going to choose the "broad road" and head off to outer darkness. Is this what God wants? Absolutely not! See 2 Peter 3:9 and Ezekial 18:23 & 32.

    When man, who is dead in his sins because he is born with a sin nature, acts on the faith and the ability to believe that was given to him by the Father, then YES, God will respond! If not, then why did the Son even come here?God hears the prayer of a repentant sinner who is acting on that measure of faith and putting their trust in His Son. God has already moved FIRST. Mankind has to respond with that faith. Next, God moves again (LAST) and gives man that gift of eternal life for acting on that faith by placing it in the Son. Again, it's all about God the Father and God the Son/Jesus. For us to put ourselves anywhere in the equation for our efforts in any regard is to downplay what God did for us FIRST and LAST (I'm not equating this with Isaiah 44:6).

    I hope that makes sense.
    I think we actually agree on some points. But if, as you say, God has made it obvious to all of creation who He is and has given people a measure of faith to believe. If not, then what He said in verse 20 "they are without excuse" would not hold up and we know that God cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18).

    If Jesus Christ is obvious to all, including all those who never heard of him, then why the great commission? And why didn't the great commission include the heathen nations that were separated from the Apostles by oceans?

  7. #32
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    [QUOTE][QUOTE=Berean;17728]
    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post

    Julie,

    I'm reading what you are saying and I've listened personally to Mormons in discussions to what they are saying. Here's the problem: you don't speak for church, you have no authority to speak for the General Authorities (they won't engage non-Mormons in discussions so I guess church members have no choice but to do it themselves) and much of what I hear is not official doctrines and teachings of your church. Most of the Mormons I know have lately been creating their own form of individual hybrid Mormonism. This is not Julieonism - it's Mormonism.
    You are right..you are hearing the opinion of someone who has been going to church for decades and reading the scriptures and listening to conference talks. Unfortunately, you do not seem to understand that if one does not understand the full gospel, it is easy to spin text and sensationalize it by taking a bit here and a bit there and ignoring the full-context. You can either believe what non-members who only look to find fault tell you, are you can believe what devout faithful attending Mormons tell you they believe.

    No, the only ones that are brainwashed, unfortunately, are our precious Mormon friends that have bought into the gospel, god and jesus of Joseph Smith's creation and imagination. They have blindly accepted what he told them in trusting in their feelings to determine truth (D&C 9 - burning of the bosom) instead of trusting what the real God has already said is truth. They have prayed about a book (Book of Mormon) that Joseph Smith used to translate by using a seer stone that he placed in his hat in which he was given the words. I'll be happy to give you the references if you are ignorant of this fact. The latest Mormon to acknowledge this fact was Mormo apostle Russell Nelson.
    I haven't blindly accepted anything. I trust that God does hear and answer my prayers and that his answers will be congruent with what he teaches. You can make fun a seer stone all you want, but other religions can make fun of a talking donkey, animals marching on to a boat, ephods, and animal sacrifices. I do not make fun of any of these things because I understand that the things of God are often laughed at by mankind.

    Yes, God can do whatever He wants, BUT HE WILL NOT violate His word. There are some things that God cannot do. He cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18). He will also not change (Malachi 3:6). Christianity doesn't put God in a box and tell Him that He cannot speak anymore. This is another misconception by Mormons. They think Christians don't believe in further revelation. God can do and say whatever He wants at anytime. I am not about to put limits on omnipotent, omniscient God.
    I am glad that you don't put limits on God, and you are right, God does not change...but what he tells his children changes for the circumstance they are in. This is why he can tell his apostles not to go to the gentiles or samaritans, but then give Peter a revelation to do such a thing.

    This thread topic isn't much about "will", it's all about grace and faith. We also aren't talking about works. Christianity believes in works and we are all about it, but it's a by-product of a saving grace and faith that has already taken place. Mormons put the cart of good works before the horse of grace. Why do I say this? Mormons have things they have to do BEFORE they can get grace from their "jesus". According to Moroni 10:32 they must:

    1. Be perfected in him
    2. Deny themselves of ALL ungodliness
    3. Love God with all your might, might and strength

    "THEN is his grace sufficient for you". Have you done this? Do you know any Mormon who has ever done this?
    You lack understanding of our doctrine and so bear false witness against us. I do not believe I can be perfected in God, nor have the pure love of Christ without God giving me this ability. What I said is that we must fully committ ourselves to following him, we must turn over our will to him in order for him to do this. This is the effort we make. Maybe for you, this is no effort--maybe God will's it and you have no choice but to turn your will over. Mormons believe that God does remove agency or the ability to choose from us. What does your own personal experience tell you? Does God force you to follow him or do you have to make an effort to turn your will over to him--with his Spirit helping you to do this fully AFTER you have made the committment?

    Oh, by the way, the very first part of Moroni 10:32 is "Yea, Come unto Christ and be perfected in him..." ..."and deny yourself all ungodliness" ...and if you keep reading..."if ye by the grace of Christ are perfect in Christ and deny not his power"...

    You seem to miss the whole point of this discussion which is that when we come unto Christ and let go of our sins, Christ is the one that does the perfecting.
    Again, the LDS defintion of grace on page 697 in the back of the Bible says that "total effort" must be given to receive grace. You don't see that theology in the Bible. Grace is unmerited favor. There is nothing you can do in any way on your own to be worthy or work for grace. You were given grace since the beginning of time. Christianity doesn't have a checklist of what we have to do to get grace. You can't earn grace. As long as you confuse grace or faith with works that are done after the fact, you won't understand this.
    Grace is an unmerited favor given to all mankind with the atonement of Jesus Christ. Without this atonement, no one, regardless of their choices, could be saved. This gift can never be removed. There is no checklist to recieve it. On the other hand, those who desire eternal life must be willing to fully committ themselves to God. You never answered my question. For the rich young man who came to Christ---why did he go away sad? Was it because of his lack of willingness to make a total effort (as we know he was making an effort as he explained to Christ) or was it Christ's lack of effort to fully recover him? Why did Christ ask him to do more? Would it require an effort on this young man's part, in fact, would it take a "total effort' for him to sale all he had and give it to the poor or not? Or was it Christ's fault for him not having what it took to do as Christ asked?
    Last edited by BigJulie; 05-31-2009 at 06:38 PM.

  8. #33
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    Grace is an unmerited favor given to all mankind with the atonement of Jesus Christ.
    Grace is indeed "unmerited favor".
    Grace is NOT given to "all mankind".

    Again, you confuse resurrection for salvation.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Grace is indeed "unmerited favor".
    Grace is NOT given to "all mankind".

    Again, you confuse resurrection for salvation.
    I never did see your step by step explaination of Romans---care to do it now? The way I read it, Christ overcame the fall of Adam. Do you remember the sentence for sin? I think you would agree it is death. Who do you think is not going to be resurrected?

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    I think we actually agree on some points. But if, as you say, God has made it obvious to all of creation who He is and has given people a measure of faith to believe. If not, then what He said in verse 20 "they are without excuse" would not hold up and we know that God cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18).

    If Jesus Christ is obvious to all, including all those who never heard of him, then why the great commission? And why didn't the great commission include the heathen nations that were separated from the Apostles by oceans?
    The person, work, earthly ministry, deity and nature of Jesus Christ is not known to all mankind. The gospel message isn't known to all of mankind. Right, that would make the command in the Great Commission pointless and confusing. What is made known to mankind is the inner awareness that there is a God. He created what we see, stand on, etc. We have inner awareness of right and wrong. He has made it known to us. That is one of the points made in Romans chapter 1.

    The Great Commission does include the heathen nations of the world. The Apostles went out as far as they could obviously and fulfilled their personal ministry in fulfilling the Great Commission. They were all martyred for it except for John. He died an old man in 101 AD in the city of Ephesus. I know D&C 7 says otherwise, but you can accept the historical record or you can accept Joseph Smith's personal opinion. History says he is wrong. The apostles died and other "picked up the torch" and kept going. The disciples of the original 12 are known in Christianity as the early church Fathers. For example, Jesus discipled John. John discipled Polycarp. Polycarp discipled Irenaeus. It just goes on from there...a successive line.

    Christians are in those heathen nations now and have been for many years. I am a supporter and involved in a ministry called Voice of the Martyrs. They've been around for over 40 years. They support the persecuted church all over the world in hostile nations. People have no idea what is going on out there when it comes to modern-day fulfilling of the Great Commission. Christians are still being brutally martyred, abused, tortured and persecuted in many hostile nations. The monthly newsletter and magazine has the color photos to prove it. It's physically nauseating to look at the photos. It's heartbreaking and it's a reality check for American Christians who are here being comfy and cozy. The numbers of Christians who are dying for their faith because of fulfilling the Great Commission today is staggering. Does the LDS Church do this?

    Voice of the Martyrs: http://www.persecution.com/

  11. #36
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    Big Julie said: "I haven't blindly accepted anything. I trust that God does hear and answer my prayers and that his answers will be congruent with what he teaches. You can make fun a seer stone all you want, but other religions can make fun of a talking donkey, animals marching on to a boat, ephods, and animal sacrifices. I do not make fun of any of these things because I understand that the things of God are often laughed at by mankind."

    I'm not making fun of it (seer stone). I'm stating a historical LDS fact that most Mormons have no clue about. Seer stone in the hat...so much for the plates, huh? By the way, the "talking donkey, animals marching on to a boat, ephods and animal sacrifices" is in the LDS Standard Works as well. It's in my LDS KJV Bible. If you don't like it or think that shouldn't be in Mormonism because of Julie's opinion, then contact your ward bishop and work your way up to the top and see about having the Standard Works "adjusted" just like they did with the introduction to the Book of Mormon in the latest printing as compared to the 1981 version...nothing new here. The LDS Church has been doing these corrections and modifications since the 1830 version came out. I've read it and I couldn't believe the difference between the 1830 and the 1981 versions.

    Anyway, Joseph Smith's seer stone is not in my LDS KJV Bible. That's called divination in Deuteronomy 18:10 and an abomination in verse 12. If you don't have a problem with this blatant misinterpretation of LDS history (your church said that Joseph Smith used the plates when he didn't) and you have swallowed this "bad medicine" down and you don't care and have no problem with it, then any type of discussion on grace and faith is a waste of time.

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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Berean View Post
    I'm not making fun of it (seer stone). I'm stating a historical LDS fact that most Mormons have no clue about. Seer stone in the hat...so much for the plates, huh? By the way, the "talking donkey, animals marching on to a boat, ephods and animal sacrifices" is in the LDS Standard Works as well. It's in my LDS KJV Bible. If you don't like it or think that shouldn't be in Mormonism because of Julie's opinion, then contact your ward bishop and work your way up to the top and see about having the Standard Works "adjusted" just like they did with the introduction to the Book of Mormon in the latest printing as compared to the 1981 version...nothing new here. The LDS Church has been doing these corrections and modifications since the 1830 version came out. I've read it and I couldn't believe the difference between the 1830 and the 1981 versions.
    You are all over the place with accusations. Don't worry, I have heard it all before, looked at it, and your claims only show a lacking of how the church works and how God works. I am glad you believe in talking donkeys as well. Good to know that there is plenty to scratch our head about if we are looking for logic.

    Anyway, Joseph Smith's seer stone is not in my LDS KJV Bible. That's called divination in Deuteronomy 18:10 and an abomination in verse 12. If you don't have a problem with this blatant misinterpretation of LDS history (your church said that Joseph Smith used the plates when he didn't) and you have swallowed this "bad medicine" down and you don't care and have no problem with it, then any type of discussion on grace and faith is a waste of time.
    Do some research on the ephod and the Urim and Thummin and see what you find in the Bible...see what you can piece together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    I never did see your step by step explaination of Romans---care to do it now? The way I read it, Christ overcame the fall of Adam. Do you remember the sentence for sin? I think you would agree it is death. Who do you think is not going to be resurrected?
    I suggest you go back and READ my response. Yes, Christ OVERCAME the "Fall", but scripture does NOT teach that it's UNIVERSALISTRIC in nature...but is ONLY efficacious FOR THE REDEEMED.

    NOT for your garden-variety unrepentant SINNER.

    Christ's resurrection PROVED that His atonement was ACCEPTABLE TO THE FATHER.

    Yes, all will be resurrected, but in typical Mormon fashion you see only that portion of it that Mormonism permits you to.

    Some are resurrected TO ETERNAL LIFE, others to ETERNAL ****ATION.

    Now, how about engaging THAT??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Nope. Didn't say that Figgie and I suggest you actually READ responses before answering. God DOES respond to man in many ways. Does He REWARD people with salvivic grace and faith in "response" to man's choices and actions...to that I heartily say, NO because the BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THIS.
    Does God GRANT people salvific grace and faith in "response" to individuals in any way shape or form?

    What about the gift of 'additional' grace, and the gift of 'additional' faith. Are these given in any way at all as a response from God to Man?
    Last edited by Fig-bearing Thistle; 06-01-2009 at 08:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berean View Post
    The person, work, earthly ministry, deity and nature of Jesus Christ is not known to all mankind. The gospel message isn't known to all of mankind. Right, that would make the command in the Great Commission pointless and confusing. What is made known to mankind is the inner awareness that there is a God. He created what we see, stand on, etc. We have inner awareness of right and wrong. He has made it known to us. That is one of the points made in Romans chapter 1.
    But isn't salvation dependent 'specifically' on a knowledge of and belief in the person named "Jesus Christ"? Isn't a knowledge and acceptance of the Gospel essential to salvation?

    Or are you (or Paul), saying that for some people in this world, it is just the belief in a Supreme Being that will bring them to salvation, and these folks don't need to have a specific belief in the name and person of Jesus Christ?
    Last edited by Fig-bearing Thistle; 06-01-2009 at 08:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    I suggest you go back and READ my response. Yes, Christ OVERCAME the "Fall", but scripture does NOT teach that it's UNIVERSALISTRIC in nature...but is ONLY efficacious FOR THE REDEEMED.

    NOT for your garden-variety unrepentant SINNER.

    Christ's resurrection PROVED that His atonement was ACCEPTABLE TO THE FATHER.

    Yes, all will be resurrected, but in typical Mormon fashion you see only that portion of it that Mormonism permits you to.

    Some are resurrected TO ETERNAL LIFE, others to ETERNAL ****ATION.

    Now, how about engaging THAT??
    But all are resurrected. Do you believe this would happen without Christ? Will you please define the word ****ation? Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    But all are resurrected. Do you believe this would happen without Christ? Will you please define the word ****ation? Thanks.
    So WHAT?? Yes, it could have happened WITHOUT CHRIST.

    I suggest you look up the word, ****ation from a reputable BIBLE dictionary, and not what LD$, Inc. tells you what it means.

  18. #43
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    Does God GRANT people salvific grace and faith in "response" to individuals in any way shape or form?
    NO, no, and no!

    What about the gift of 'additional' grace, and the gift of 'additional' faith. Are these given in any way at all as a response from God to Man?

    Finally we're getting some where. This is WHY I posted a lengthy article on the DIFFERENT MEANINGS OF "GRACE".

    So YES, God does respond to the REGENERATE Christian with MORE grace, etc. This is CLEAR from the article I provided.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    So WHAT?? Yes, it could have happened WITHOUT CHRIST.

    I suggest you look up the word, ****ation from a reputable BIBLE dictionary, and not what LD$, Inc. tells you what it means.
    That is a pretty big difference in the way you believe and I do. I believe that because Adam partook of the fruit, he was subject to death as are all men born as a result. If it was not for Jesus Christ, I do not believe we could resurrected or overcome any type of death. I see that you believe that your resurrection was not dependent on Christ. This is the reason you and I read Romans differently.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    But isn't salvation dependent 'specifically' on a knowledge of and belief in the person named "Jesus Christ"? Isn't a knowledge and acceptance of the Gospel essential to salvation?

    Or are you (or Paul), saying that for some people in this world, it is just the belief in a Supreme Being that will bring them to salvation, and these folks don't need to have a specific belief in the name and person of Jesus Christ?
    Yes, the Bible is clear that salvation (in Christianity this means eternal life) is through Jesus Christ and Him alone (Acts 4:12). If you are wanting to bring in the scenario or illustrative argument and question of what will happen to a person who has never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ (ie: the pigmy in the Amazon jungle), all I can tell you is that the Bible - God's Word - says that God is a righteous judge and will judge fairly (Psalm 19:9; 96:12-13; Genesis 18:25). Jesus is God the Son and God the Father has appointed all judgement to the Son (John 5:22). Some in Christianity (Calvinists) would disagree with me on this, but I believe that the Son will judge fairly those that truly have never heard the name of Christ and these people will not be sent to eternal ****ation for not accepting a Savior they never heard of. I believe this group falls into the same category with infants, small children, mentally disabled, etc. I believe for people like the "pigmy in the Amazon jungle" they will be held accountable for what has been made known to them (Romans 1:20) and be judged on that because they are without excuse.

    I don't know how the Son is going to work all that out in His own providence and righteous judgement. That is not up for me to decide. There are some things for the Lord to know about and some things for us not to know about (Deut 29:29). Needless to say, this whole scenario doesn't apply to anyone here. Everyone here knows the deal. For any Mormon to have made it to the Walter Martin website has undoubedly heard and read of the errors of Mormonism and it's false god and "jesus". The Mormons have their god who is an exalted man who lives near Kolob. Christianity doesn't believe this and the God of the Bible is not described in those terms. That is why discussions of grace, works, etc., are a waste of time with Mormons until they realize that their exalted man who became a god is the creation of Joseph Smith's imagination (Romans 1:23), they aren't going to become a god (Isaiah 43:10-12) and that each Mormon is born a sinner (Romans 3:23; 5:12). Once Mormons come to that realization, then the discussions have real meaning. This discussion is just "filler" in light of the big picture/discussion.
    Last edited by Berean; 06-01-2009 at 10:15 PM.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    That is a pretty big difference in the way you believe and I do. I believe that because Adam partook of the fruit, he was subject to as are all men born as a result. If it was not for Jesus Christ, I do not believe we could resurrected or overcome any type of . I see that you believe that your resurrection was not dependent on Christ. This is the reason you and I read Romans differently.
    I KNOW what you believe. Your problem is that you can NOT SUPPORT IT FROM THE BIBLE...plain and simple.

  22. #47
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berean View Post
    Yes, the Bible is clear that salvation (in Christianity this means eternal life) is through Jesus Christ and Him alone (Acts 4:12). If you are wanting to bring in the scenario or illustrative argument and question of what will happen to a person who has never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ (ie: the pigmy in the Amazon jungle), all I can tell you is that the Bible - God's Word - says that God is a righteous judge and will judge fairly (Psalm 19:9; 96:12-13; Genesis 18:25). Jesus is God the Son and God the Father has appointed all judgement to the Son (John 5:22). Some in Christianity (Calvinists) would disagree with me on this, but I believe that the Son will judge fairly those that truly have never heard the name of Christ and these people will not be sent to eternal ****ation for not accepting a Savior they never heard of. I believe this group falls into the same category with infants, small children, mentally disabled, etc. I believe for people like the "pigmy in the Amazon jungle" they will be held accountable for what has been made known to them (Romans 1:20) and be judged on that because they are without excuse.

    I don't know how the Son is going to work all that out in His own providence and righteous judgement. That is not up for me to decide. There are some things for the Lord to know about and some things for us not to know about (Deut 29:29). Needless to say, this whole scenario doesn't apply to anyone here.
    So if you have no idea HOW God will save those who have never heard of Jesus Christ, and still maintain that Jesus Christ is the only way, then you have no business saying that what we believe on that topic is false.

    Every LDS who comes here is well aware of the corruption that came into Christianity that led to the great apostasy. Most of the faithful remaining were either killed, or shamed and embarr***ed out of the much of their faith. What remains today are only fragments of the fulness.

  23. #48
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    NO, no, and no!




    Finally we're getting some where. This is WHY I posted a lengthy article on the DIFFERENT MEANINGS OF "GRACE".

    So YES, God does respond to the REGENERATE Christian with MORE grace, etc. This is CLEAR from the article I provided.
    Is Regeneration a choice belonging to Man?

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    I KNOW what you believe. Your problem is that you can NOT SUPPORT IT FROM THE BIBLE...plain and simple.
    You believe there is not Biblical proof that without Christ, we would not be resurrected? Is this really your claim?

  25. #50
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    So WHAT?? Yes, it [resurrection] could have happened WITHOUT CHRIST.


    I'm at a loss of words on this one.

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