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Thread: Does God respond to Man?

  1. #51
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    You believe there is not Biblical proof that without Christ, we would not be resurrected? Is this really your claim?
    Fig had no words so I will come to you.. The promise of the resurrection is part of the OT and there is nothing there to say Jesus resurrection gave us anything but the conformation of God's promise to raise the dead in the Last day.. We receive Justification through the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is given as a free gift to the sinner so the sinner is declared righteous before a Holy God. Sanctification, on the other hand, involves the work of the person. But it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is also the work of God in the lives of Hos children. He and only He makes us holy. These two gifts of God come through The death of Jesus.. The resurrection is a down payment on the promise of God to raise all those who have lived and died.. IHS jim

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Fig had no words so I will come to you.. The promise of the resurrection is part of the OT and there is nothing there to say Jesus resurrection gave us anything but the conformation of God's promise to raise the dead in the Last day.. We receive Justification through the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is given as a free gift to the sinner so the sinner is declared righteous before a Holy God. Sanctification, on the other hand, involves the work of the person. But it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is also the work of God in the lives of Hos children. He and only He makes us holy. These two gifts of God come through The death of Jesus.. The resurrection is a down payment on the promise of God to raise all those who have lived and died.. IHS jim

    So am I understanding that you also believe that we would be resurrected regardless of Jesus Christ as well?

  3. #53
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    So am I understanding that you also believe that we would be resurrected regardless of Jesus Christ as well?
    I am not sure that I can stand behind such a tradition While there are statements in the Bible that call the bones of men to life (and this is what I was thinking of during this discussion):
    Ezek 37:4-5
    Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
    Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live

    However there is also Biblical evidence that all will be made alive though Jesus.. I must be Biblically sound or I am nothing.. I will say that without Jesus the rest of the scripture would not have been fulfilled..
    1 Cor 15:22
    For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Father JD is in error on this point.. IHS jim

  4. #54
    Father_JD
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    Frankly, I'm shocked by your UNIVERSALISM if I'm understanding you correctly.

    Please note the qualifiers:

    "In Adam"
    "In Christ"

    The whole human family is "in Adam".
    Only the REDEEMED are "in Christ".

    Read

    I suggest you go read a good commentary such as Jamieson, Fausset and Brown to disabuse you of your universalistic notions. The "resurrection" in Eze. 37 is strictly metaphorical regarding the recons***ution of the Jewish nation.

    Here's what J, F &B sa regarding this verse:

    22. in Adam all--in union of nature with Adam, as representative head of mankind in their fall.
    in Christ . . . all--in union of nature with Christ, the representative head of mankind in their recovery. The life brought in by Christ is co-extensive with the death brought in by Adam.

    Only the Redeemed are "in union of nature with Christ".
    Last edited by Father_JD; 06-03-2009 at 10:38 AM.

  5. #55
    Father_JD
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    I'm at a loss of words on this one.

    God's a really big God, Figgie (the real one, ya know? Not the exalted human schmoe you think is God) and it didn't take Christ's resurrection to be a CAUSAL agent in any kind of resurrection.

    All God has to say is, "ARISE!" and it's done.

  6. #56
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    You believe there is not Biblical proof that without Christ, we would not be resurrected? Is this really your claim?
    You've used so many negatives, it's very difficult to understand your point. The bible does NOT teach that Jesus' resurrection is CAUSAL for other resurrections. God the Father is more than capable of stating, "Arise" and it's a done deal...with or without Jesus.

    The great promise for believers is that we will be resurrected just as Jesus Himself was.

  7. #57
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Is Regeneration a choice belonging to Man?

    No, Figgie. Read Romans 9 until it sinks in, wouldja??

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    You've used so many negatives, it's very difficult to understand your point. The bible does NOT teach that Jesus' resurrection is CAUSAL for other resurrections. God the Father is more than capable of stating, "Arise" and it's a done deal...with or without Jesus.

    The great promise for believers is that we will be resurrected just as Jesus Himself was.
    As I stated before, this is the big difference between your beliefs and mine and why we interpret Romans differently. I did not realize that this plain and precious truth was not obvious in the Bible. Why do you think you cannot overcome spiritual death without Christ, but that you can overcome physical death without him? Why do we call Christ the firstfruit of resurrection?

  9. #59
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    As I stated before, this is the big difference between your beliefs and mine and why we interpret Romans differently. I did not realize that this plain and precious truth was not obvious in the Bible. Why do you think you cannot overcome spiritual without Christ, but that you can overcome physical without him? Why do we call Christ the firstfruit of resurrection?

    You interpret Romans NOT CONTEXTUALLY, but through the alien foreign lens of Mormon doctrine. Romans is teaching something radically different than what you think.

    Christ's atonement negated spiritual , yes. Because Christ lives, we shall live too, hence He is the "firstfruit of resurrection".

    What you're not understanding is that from a CAUSAL standpoint, God the Father is more than able to resurrect anyone at anytime.

    God chose that Christ should overcome physical on our behalf, but I'm speaking from a different viewpoint regarding God's own OMNIPOTENCE.

    Got it now?

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    You interpret Romans NOT CONTEXTUALLY, but through the alien foreign lens of Mormon doctrine. Romans is teaching something radically different than what you think.

    Christ's atonement negated spiritual , yes. Because Christ lives, we shall live too, hence He is the "firstfruit of resurrection".

    What you're not understanding is that from a CAUSAL standpoint, God the Father is more than able to resurrect anyone at anytime.

    God chose that Christ should overcome physical on our behalf, but I'm speaking from a different viewpoint regarding God's own OMNIPOTENCE.

    Got it now?
    So, if I am understanding you correctly, Christ's atonement was not needed to overcome physical death even though God chose Christ to overcome physical death. It could have been, according to you, someone else if God chose it, and therefore, when I read Romans, according to you, the fact that it was Christ that God chose to overcome physical death, I should not in any way use this information to understand Romans because it is an insignificant tidbit of information that really doesn't matter when understanding scripture. In otherwords, even though Christ was chosen to overcome physical death, because it could have been anybody, I should not to any degree use this as part of my understsanding (that it was Christ who overcame physical death) when interpretting scripture and strickly think of Christ overcoming spiritual death only as the other part is insignificant as it could have been anybody? (God being omnipotent, so Christ's role in this is insignificant.) Is this what you are saying?
    Last edited by BigJulie; 06-03-2009 at 06:53 PM.

  11. #61
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    You interpret Romans NOT CONTEXTUALLY, but through the alien foreign lens of Mormon doctrine. Romans is teaching something radically different than what you think.

    Christ's atonement negated spiritual , yes. Because Christ lives, we shall live too, hence He is the "firstfruit of resurrection".

    What you're not understanding is that from a CAUSAL standpoint, God the Father is more than able to resurrect anyone at anytime.

    God chose that Christ should overcome physical on our behalf, but I'm speaking from a different viewpoint regarding God's own OMNIPOTENCE.

    Got it now?
    I suppose God, being omnipotent, could also break his own laws of justice and mercy, but wouldn't that make Him NO LONGER GOD?

  12. #62
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    I suppose God, being omnipotent, could also break his own laws of justice and mercy, but wouldn't that make Him NO LONGER GOD?

    You do not understand the nature of God's "omnipotence", figgie that you could pose this kind of question. His own laws of justice, mercy, etc. are inviolable...and accord with the very nature of His being.

    God can NOT LIE. It's against His own nature.

    Now before you run off on a tangent that that means God isn't really "omnipotent", and embarr*** yourself, I suggest you understand what His "omnipotence" MEANS from the Biblical/Christian standpoint and NOT what Mormons IMAGINE it means.

  13. #63
    Father_JD
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    No, you didn't understand correctly. It's NOT a case of "somebody else overcoming physical ", but that God SOVEREIGNLY CHOSE CHRIST to do this. What I'm saying, is based upon the doctrine of God's OMNIPOTENCE, He could resurrect anybody BY HIS SOVEREIGN DECREE.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    No, you didn't understand correctly. It's NOT a case of "somebody else overcoming physical ", but that God SOVEREIGNLY CHOSE CHRIST to do this. What I'm saying, is based upon the doctrine of God's OMNIPOTENCE, He could resurrect anybody BY HIS SOVEREIGN DECREE.
    Sorry, I am still not understanding. You seem to be saying that it was not Christ that overcame death (physical) by the power of his atonement, but God the Father whose power overcame death relying nothing on Christ. Is this right?

  15. #65
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Sorry, I am still not understanding. You seem to be saying that it was not Christ that overcame (physical) by the power of his atonement, but God the Father whose power overcame relying nothing on Christ. Is this right?

    Nope. Didn't say that. Yes, Christ overcame . What I AM merely proposing is that based upon God's OMNIPOTENCE (got it NOW????)

    He's more than able to resurrect ANYONE based upon his OMNIPOTENT POWER ALONE.

    Got it...Finally??

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Nope. Didn't say that. Yes, Christ overcame . What I AM merely proposing is that based upon God's OMNIPOTENCE (got it NOW????)

    He's more than able to resurrect ANYONE based upon his OMNIPOTENT POWER ALONE.

    Got it...Finally??
    No, I really don't. Who's omnipotent power are we discussing? Christ's?

    Okay, so Christ dies on the cross....he goes down to the pit, to unlock the gates of hell....he overcomes death...but chooses another fellow to start the process? Is this what you are inferring, that it didn't have to be him to open the graves? I mean, it could of been him, but he could have started with someone else's body and then followed them? Wouldn't it still be then, Christ, who overcame physical death allowing us all to be resurrected?

    Can you give me a case scenario in which you are envisioning, maybe that would help?
    Last edited by BigJulie; 06-04-2009 at 12:45 PM.

  17. #67
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    No, I really don't. Who's omnipotent power are we discussing? Christ's?

    Okay, so Christ dies on the cross....he goes down to the pit, to unlock the gates of hell....he overcomes ...but chooses another fellow to start the process? Is this what you are inferring, that it didn't have to be him to open the graves? I mean, it could of been him, but he could have started with someone else's body and then followed them? Wouldn't it still be then, Christ, who overcame physical allowing us all to be resurrected?

    Can you give me a case scenario in which you are envisioning, maybe that would help?

    Thanks for your honesty that you still don't understand. I don't know who else to express it:

    God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) has OMNIPOTENT POWER AND CAN RESURRECT ANYONE BASED UPON THIS ALONE.

    It isn't a case of "somebody else".

    Please try to think outside of the Mormon BOX.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Thanks for your honesty that you still don't understand. I don't know who else to express it:

    God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) has OMNIPOTENT POWER AND CAN RESURRECT ANYONE BASED UPON THIS ALONE.

    It isn't a case of "somebody else".

    Please try to think outside of the Mormon BOX.
    So, the according to you, God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)---did not need to start the process via God? They could chosen anyone and started there because it did not require God himself start the process with himself. Is this what you are saying? In other words, it was not Jesus Christ that overcame physical death, it was God (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) who overcame physical death and the broader "God" didn't need to start with the incarnated God to do this, right?
    Last edited by BigJulie; 06-04-2009 at 01:02 PM.

  19. #69
    Father_JD
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    Forget "process". Forget "anyone else".

    GOD IS OMNIPOTENT. He (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is MORE THAN capable of resurrecting ANYONE AT ANY TIME.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Forget "process". Forget "anyone else".

    GOD IS OMNIPOTENT. He (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is MORE THAN capable of resurrecting ANYONE AT ANY TIME.
    So why wait for Christ to be resurrected first? Why was Christ the firstfruit if there is no purpose in it or if it didn't matter?

  21. #71
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    So why wait for Christ to be resurrected first? Why was Christ the firstfruit if there is no purpose in it or if it didn't matter?

    Because God DEIGNED it to be so. Christ's resurrection signaled the efficacy of His atonement.

    Who said there's "no purpose in it" or it didn't matter??

    I sure didn't, and you keep missing the point: God's OMNIPOTENCE.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Because God DEIGNED it to be so. Christ's resurrection signaled the efficacy of His atonement.

    Who said there's "no purpose in it" or it didn't matter??

    I sure didn't, and you keep missing the point: God's OMNIPOTENCE.
    And do you remember the original point, that it was Jesus Christ (God) who overcame both physical and spiritual death. Since you believe it did not matter that it was God who overcame physical death, even though God deigned it to be so, you read Romans differently. I read it from the standpoint that Christ (God) overcame both physical and spiritual death. You seem to agree with this point--"Christ's resurrection signaled the efficacy of His atonement." In otherwords, it worked in overcoming death and we could see this by his resurrection.

  23. #73
    Father_JD
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    This is getting real-l-l-ly old. You're still not getting it and I don't know how to make you understand that...

    GOD IS OMNIPOTENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    This is getting real-l-l-ly old. You're still not getting it and I don't know how to make you understand that...

    GOD IS OMNIPOTENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I believe God is omnipotent too...that is not the question and you are not answering it by explaining something to me I already know. It is like asking you why you believe 1+1=5 and you keep answering over and over, "numbers are real." I know numbers are real, I am trying to understand your logic of how that applies.

    I am beginning to believe that you are avoiding really looking at this.

    I'll tell you what, let's go back to Romans and we can read it line by line, together and we can see how you see it and how I see it, as we both agree that God is omnipotent, but I, unlike you, believe that it was Christ's atonement that allows us to overcome the physical death, or any kind of death for that matter.
    Last edited by BigJulie; 06-04-2009 at 02:08 PM.

  25. #75
    Father_JD
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    You don't believe God is "omnipotent"...you Mos merely pay lip-service to this. You don't believe He could call things into existence "ex nihilo" but can only shape "eternal, pre-existent" muck in his cosmic hands...

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