My Hearts Cry

[Charity]

Dearly Beloved,

LDS believe those of us former LDS that post here at WM are going to Outer Darkness. We've been lead away by the devil for not having a testimony of all the covenants and doctrines of Mormonism.

Evangelicals believe LDS have not received the Jesus Christ of the Bible and are unredeemed and thus are going to hell.

Is this the gist of it?

Do LDS tell us we're going to Outer Darkness and are concerned for us. Not that I've experienced.
Do evangelicals tell the LDS they're in danger of hell fire? Yes.

Do we speak the truth in love? Can the truth be accepted in any other way?

People are going to hell.

We are all beloved of God and He desires that none of us perish. How can we love those that are perishing?

This is not a rebuke. It's my hearts cry. I'm thinking outloud to myself and wonder what you think?

Why are you here at WM? Is this a forum where we defend the truth witout caring? Do we protect our hearts at all cost?

Sincerely in Grace,
Charity

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Charity

LDS believe those of us former LDS that post here at WM are going to Outer Darkness. We've been lead away by the devil for not having a testimony of all the covenants and doctrines of Mormonism.

That's an incorrect statement. LDS DO NOT believe that someone who simply rejects the restored gospel after having received it are going to Outer Darkness. You might consider reading up on LDS beliefs again before making false statements like this.

Evangelicals believe LDS have not received the Jesus Christ of the Bible and are unredeemed and thus are going to hell.

This seems accurate.

Do LDS tell us we're going to Outer Darkness and are concerned for us. Not that I've experienced.

Good! Becasue as i said, that isn't LDS teaching. To tell you you are going to Outer darkness 1) would be disingenuious and 2) would make us guilty of making unrightous judgements.

LDS do not believe in a Heaven/ hell; P***/ Fail system of judgement and therefore we do not claim, as your Evangelical friends do, that you must accept OUR beliefset to go to Heaven or else you will go to Hell.

Do evangelicals tell the LDS they're in danger of hell fire? Yes.

Okay.

People are going to hell.

True.

We are all beloved of God and He desires that none of us perish. How can we love those that are perishing?

You can share what you believe. And then allow that person to either accept or reject your message.

Why are you here at WM? Is this a forum where we defend the truth witout caring? Do we protect our hearts at all cost?

For me, I am here to defend my beliefs from the constant barrage of attacks and twisted ideas that people who hate the Mormon church promulgate here.

I'm not here to seek potential converts. Those here that post regularly are just as convinced that Mormonism is wrong as I am convinced that it is right. So I don't expect anyone to change their opinion, just as I hope they don't expect me to change mine.

And I also use this forum as a means of pointing out how, for some, tearing down Mormonism is higher on the list of 'To-do's' than building up the kingdom of God.....and that speaks volumes to me about the kind of 'Christianity' that certain attackers of Mormonism are trying to peddle here...in that they are more concerned with Mormonism and why it is so bad in their eyes than they are with their Christianity and why it is so good.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

That's an incorrect statement. LDS DO NOT believe that someone who simply rejects the restored gospel after having received it are going to Outer Darkness. You might consider reading up on LDS beliefs again before making false statements like this.



This seems accurate.



Good! Becasue as i said, that isn't LDS teaching. To tell you you are going to Outer darkness 1) would be disingenuious and 2) would make us guilty of making unrightous judgements.

LDS do not believe in a Heaven/ hell; P***/ Fail system of judgement and therefore we do not claim, as your Evangelical friends do, that you must accept OUR beliefset to go to Heaven or else you will go to Hell.



Okay.



True.



You can share what you believe. And then allow that person to either accept or reject your message.



For me, I am here to defend my beliefs from the constant barrage of attacks and twisted ideas that people who hate the Mormon church promulgate here.

I'm not here to seek potential converts. Those here that post regularly are just as convinced that Mormonism is wrong as I am convinced that it is right. So I don't expect anyone to change their opinion, just as I hope they don't expect me to change mine.

And I also use this forum as a means of pointing out how, for some, tearing down Mormonism is higher on the list of 'To-do's' than building up the kingdom of God.....and that speaks volumes to me about the kind of 'Christianity' that certain attackers of Mormonism are trying to peddle here...in that they are more concerned with Mormonism and why it is so bad in their eyes than they are with their Christianity and why it is so good.

Jesus spent a lot more time and effort showing mankind the way to God and very little telling people they are on the wrong tract.. So let me take that example: You must be born again..NOT BAPTIZED, but have a life changing moment that connects a person to God, a rebirth. A person must turn away from the father of this world that they have always known and followed and turn to Jesus and except His works on their behalf and His Lordship over their life as their Father.. A person can't believe some idol of stone or of invention from the mind of a man can be that Lord. It MUST BE the Lord revealed in the word of God.. Anything but that LORD is not God but a idol. Christian are here to show you the differences between mormonism idols and the Bibles God.. IHS jim

[Father_JD]

Thanks for demonstrating Mormon cognitive dissonance in which you can believe two mutually-exclusive truth claims at the same time:

LDS do not believe in a Heaven/ hell;

People are going to hell.

True.

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Thanks for demonstrating Mormon cognitive dissonance in which you can believe two mutually-exclusive truth claims at the same time:




People are going to hell.

and thank YOU for 'demonstrating' your total ignorance of LDS beliefs.

Any honest reader (which excludes you, since you are apparently reading to find fault) can see that those are not two mutually exclusive things.

I said, "LDS do not believe in a Heaven/Hell; P***/Fail judgement." No, LDS believe in a gradation of Heaven; levels of Heaven and rewards. Not just the 2 places. It isn't either/or. That was the point.

Hell is a place reserved for the most wicked and Sons of Perdition. There will be people that go there. However, my response was that, unlike Evangelical theology, not all 'bad' people go to Hell. There are other rewards and degrees of Heaven.

Let me make it easier for Father JD to comprehend, as I see he is looking for fault here.

Evangelical Christians believe there are 2 options: Heaven and Hell

LDS believe there are at least 4 options: Celestial Kingdom (Heaven), Terrestial Kingdom (Heaven), Telestial Kingdom (Heaven), Outer Darkness (Hell).

So YES....some people will end up in Hell.
No, it isn't cognative dissonance to believe that and also maintain that we do not believe in a Heaven/Hell; P***/Fail system of judgement.

Yes, it is easy to see you finding fault and picking a fight. Is this what I can expect in MY lonely golden years?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

and thank YOU for 'demonstrating' your total ignorance of LDS beliefs.

Any honest reader (which excludes you, since you are apparently reading to find fault) can see that those are not two mutually exclusive things.

I said, "LDS do not believe in a Heaven/Hell; P***/Fail judgement." No, LDS believe in a gradation of Heaven; levels of Heaven and rewards. Not just the 2 places. It isn't either/or. That was the point.

Hell is a place reserved for the most wicked and Sons of Perdition. There will be people that go there. However, my response was that, unlike Evangelical theology, not all 'bad' people go to Hell. There are other rewards and degrees of Heaven.

Let me make it easier for Father JD to comprehend, as I see he is looking for fault here.

Evangelical Christians believe there are 2 options: Heaven and Hell

LDS believe there are at least 4 options: Celestial Kingdom (Heaven), Terrestial Kingdom (Heaven), Telestial Kingdom (Heaven), Outer Darkness (Hell).

So YES....some people will end up in Hell.
No, it isn't cognative dissonance to believe that and also maintain that we do not believe in a Heaven/Hell; P***/Fail system of judgement.

Yes, it is easy to see you finding fault and picking a fight. Is this what I can expect in MY lonely golden years?

You just wrote, "They're not an either or", i.e. Heaven or hell...and then you go on to write that yes, people will go to hell.

You just can't see your own contradiction just like you can't see the Mormon contradiction of claiming salvation is a GIFT, and then bring back in works into the mix which means it's NOT a gift of all, but of MERIT.

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

You just wrote, "They're not an either or", i.e. Heaven or hell...and then you go on to write that yes, people will go to hell.

You just can't see your own contradiction just like you can't see the Mormon contradiction of claiming salvation is a GIFT, and then bring back in works into the mix which means it's NOT a gift of all, but of MERIT.

Exactly....since apparently you STILL cannot understand, let me help you out some more.

Evangelical belief = Option #1, Option #2

that's it.

LDS belief = Option #1, Option #2, Option #3, Option #4

If Hell is Option #1, it is PERFECTLY okay for an LDS to say that it isn't #1 or #2 and that's it. But it is also PERFECTLY okay to admit that SOME people will end up in Option #1 (Hell)

Senility is not very becoming of you.

[Father_JD]

LOL. Mormon reindeer games, vlad.

You're making it :

Heaven #1
Heaven #2
Heaven #3

vs.

Hell


doesn't solve your self-contradictory position of:

Saying Mormons don't believe in hell, but DO believe in three heavens and then turn around and state people DO go to hell.

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

LOL. Mormon reindeer games, vlad.

You're making it :

Heaven #1
Heaven #2
Heaven #3

vs.

Hell


doesn't solve your self-contradictory position of:

Saying Mormons don't believe in hell, but DO believe in three heavens and then turn around and state people DO go to hell.

Since I DIDN'T say the Mormons DON'T believe in Hell, I can understand why you are so obtuse to the LDS teachings. I'm sorry that the LDS teaching of 3 levels of Heaven AND a place called Outer Darkness still cannot sink into your understanding and you still are wont to misrepresent the LDS position.

Can I make it even easier for the Father JD? Maybe. Here goes:

Some people will end up in Heaven #1
Some people will end up in Heaven #2
Some people will end up in Heaven #3
Some people will end up in Outer darkness (Hell)

Sorry I cannot draw you colorful pictures for you to understand.

EDIT: You know, It's funny when you guys complain that LDS misrepresent your words/ beliefs. But yet you give a shining example of doing that very thing here; saying I claimed LDS do not believe in Hell. Scroll through the thread if you need to, but you'll not find that belief that you attributed to me. Do you intentially misrepresent others or is it just a sign of senility?

[Father_JD]

I know LDS doctrine only too well, vlad.

Listen to the reality of Mormon teaching:

3 heavens.
NO HELL

Although LDS pay lip service to "Outer Darkness" or "Hell" you guys deny the doctrine in practice...I mean you're the guys who believe MURDERERS, RAPISTS, all sorts of the most evil people imaginable will go to the LOWEST KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

So why don't you get real, vlad??

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

So why don't you get real, vlad??

--- "Don't get mad--get VLAD!" For some reason that old Glad plastic bags commercial popped into my mind. Sorry.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

--- "Don't get mad--get VLAD!" For some reason that old Glad plastic bags commercial popped into my mind. Sorry.

LOL. You can add that to our "Evanly Father" John Calvin.

(That still cracks me up, jeff!)

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

LOL. You can add that to our "Evanly Father" John Calvin. (That still cracks me up, jeff!)

---You still remember that? The only time I think about it is when you bring it up every 6 months or so. (Just not many occasions to put it to use, I guess.)

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---You still remember that? The only time I think about it is when you bring it up every 6 months or so. (Just not many occasions to put it to use, I guess.)

I've got a good memory for quips that crack me up, jeff...so YES, I still remember that.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

I know LDS doctrine only too well, vlad.

Listen to the reality of Mormon teaching:

3 heavens.
NO HELL

Although LDS pay lip service to "Outer Darkness" or "Hell" you guys deny the doctrine in practice...I mean you're the guys who believe MURDERERS, RAPISTS, all sorts of the most evil people imaginable will go to the LOWEST KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

So why don't you get real, vlad??

Actually, whenever I give this lesson I refer to it as one heaven and three degrees of hell, because for me, being out of the presence of my Father in Heaven would be hell, especially when I would be eternally reminded of what was possible.
But to be technical, the abode of the Sons of Perdition is the only permanent hell.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by theway

Actually, whenever I give this lesson I refer to it as one heaven and three degrees of hell, because for me, being out of the presence of my Father in Heaven would be hell, especially when I would be eternally reminded of what was possible.
But to be technical, the abode of the Sons of Perdition is the only permanent hell.

There's a term for your tactic, and it's called, "equivocation".

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

I know LDS doctrine only too well,Vlad.

Listen to the reality of Mormon teaching:3 heavens. NO HELL.

Although LDS pay lip service to "Outer Darkness" or "Hell" you guys deny the doctrine in practice...I mean you're the guys who believe MURDERERS,RAPISTS,all sorts of the most evil people imaginable will go to the LOWEST KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. So why don't you get real,Vlad??

The Book of Mormon teaches us that hell is a reality. The experience of hell is a state of guilt,pain,anguish,torment,despair and horror which torment is like an unquenchable fire. Hell is a permanent condition for some and a temporary condition for most. The Book of Mormon speaks of only two groups of people who inhabit the post mortal spirit world. The righteous who are in paradise and the wicked who will be resurrected to an endless hell. The Book of Mormon does not speak of kingdoms of glory or levels of heaven. However it teaches us that all men will be resurrected and return to the presence of God to be judged of their works. As our works are so varied this necessitates different levels of reward.

[Father_JD]

Hell is a permanent condition for some and a temporary condition for most.

Now, try defending THAT sentiment from the Bible.


Oh, I forgot. You can't.

[nrajeff]

Hell was a temporary condition, because it ended when Bob terminated our presence there....

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Hell was a temporary condition, because it ended when Bob terminated our presence there....

Funny as usual, jeff.


Thanks!

[Mesenja]

No the reality is that you have demonstrated conclusively for all to see that you have absolutely no clue as to our doctrinal teachings. You boasted to Vlad that you knew "the reality of Mormon teaching" and then went on to say that we did not believe in the concept of Hell. Now you are trying to back peddle from this in a desperate attempt to distance yourself from your previous statements. My ability or lack of ability to defend Latter-day Saint (Mormon) doctrines as found in the Book of Mormon from the Bible is irrelevant. I have proven that you are wrong from The Book of Mormon. Deal with this.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Now, try defending THAT sentiment from the Bible. Oh,I forgot. You can't.

This is deflection pure and simple. No matter what anyone says or how they say it,no matter if they are dead right true,one of your favourite responses will always be to deflect from the topic at hand as you have demonstrated here. Here is what you said previously.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Listen to the reality of Mormon teaching:

3 heavens.
NO HELL

Although LDS pay lip service to "Outer Darkness" or "Hell" you guys deny the doctrine in practice...I mean you're the guys who believe MURDERERS,RAPISTS,all sorts of the most evil people imaginable will go to the LOWEST KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. So why don't you get real,Vlad??

Now,try defending that sentiment from The Book of Mormon. Oh,I forgot. You can't.

Samuel Goldwyn - "I'm willing to admit that I may not always be right, but I am never wrong."

[Father_JD]

You keep missing it:

"Hell" exists in Mormon doctrine.

The equivocation of Mormonism?

No one EVER really goes there but to one of the "lower kingdoms" thereby making the existence of "hell" MOOT.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

You keep missing it:

"Hell" exists in Mormon doctrine.

The equivocation of Mormonism?

No one EVER really goes there but to one of the "lower kingdoms" thereby making the existence of "hell" MOOT.

Nonsense go back and read what I said

But to be technical, the abode of the Sons of Perdition is the only permanent hell.

But still you managed to miss it a few times already on this thread.
There is a temporary hell and one permanent hell.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by theway

Nonsense go back and read what I said

But still you managed to miss it a few times already on this thread.
There is a temporary hell and one permanent hell.

"Go back and read WHAT I SAID"????

Are you back to changing aliases yet again, Mesenja/Gentoo/nom du jour???

There is NO temporary hell according to the BIBLE....
But yes, I'm quite aware of MORMON LIP-SERVICE to the "permanent hell" to which only ex-Mormons go to.

And then you've got your typical Mormon equivocation that the two "lower kingdoms" cons***ute "hell".

All depends on whom you're talking to. I know of LDS who completely DENY any hell of any kind...only a "spiritual prison" and NOTHING MORE.

[Mesenja]

If there was any doubt left in any ones mind that you may have some knowledge of Latter-day Saint doctrine and practice this is irrefutable evidence that you have absolutely no clue.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

But yes,I'm quite aware of MORMON LIP-SERVICE to the "permanent hell" to which only ex-Mormons go to.

And then you've got your typical Mormon equivocation that the two "lower kingdoms" cons***ute "hell".

All depends on whom you're talking to. I know of LDS who completely DENY any hell of any kind...only a "spiritual prison" and NOTHING MORE.

1. We don't believe that only ex-Mormons will go to hell.

2. We don't believe that the lower kingdoms of glory cons***utes hell.

3. We don't believe that the spiritual prison is equivalent to hell.