My Hearts Cry

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

So why don't you get real, vlad??

--- "Don't get mad--get VLAD!" For some reason that old Glad plastic bags commercial popped into my mind. Sorry.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Charity

What was your born again experience in the Lutheran Church (?)

I was never a member of the Lutheran Church. SbT was, though.

My "born again experience" in the church I was once a member of before becoming a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints basically consisted of accepting the word of God and being baptized in water while allowing God to work with me through the Holy Spirit, at which point I had learned and was continuing to learn all I could from God as I felt God direct me through personal revelation to me and the writings I knew he had inspired other men to write.

I mean do you remember giving your heart to Jesus?

Yes.

You don't mind that the Bible says no one is to add or take away from the Bible without consequences?

That's a misunderstanding of what God said through men who wrote the Bible.

God isn't prevented from revealing information to his children, both personally and through other people, and when God reveals information to other people they generally write at least some of it down so that other people can benefit from what God has told them.

What you know is not in the Bible. Isn't that right?

No, that's not right, because a lot of what I know is in the Bible.

Someone wrote something which is now included in the Bible about how Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and that is exactly the same thing I know, for myself, through personal revelation from God to me.

There are some things that I know that aren't written in any part of the Holy Bible, but those things are written that I know which are true are written in other revelations from God as men have written them down to share them.

If Joseph Smith translated the Bible correctly then why didn't he include all the add on's you believe in?

That wasn't necessary, Charity.

When a prophet of God reveals revelation from God, he doesn't have to tack it onto someone else's record of revelation in the same book or books.

The apostle John, for example, wrote his own book. He didn't record what he wanted to record in Matthew's record, or Marks' record, or Luke's record. He wrote his own book, or books, and somebody else then came along later to include them all together in the same book or volume of books in much the same way as we (LDS) have now done by putting together the "Quad".

We still have revelations that aren't a part of the Quad, though, and they don't need to be added together in the same volume as those other books.

Your are absolutely right that what some people say about Jesus contradicts what other people say. It definitely doesn't mean that one of them is right and the other wrong. One wrong + One wrong= two wrongs.

There are some people who have recorded the truth, though, Charity, and those are the people who have revealed the word of God to us.

The testimony of Jesus revealed by prophets and apostles through out the Bible being in perfect harmony with LDS Apostles and Prophets is so wrong.

No, it's not wrong. All of it is in perfect harmony, if correctly understood.

I deny your accusation that all of those revelations are not in harmony.

The reason President Hinckley said what he said is what many of us here believe to be true about LDS: You worship a different Jesus.

I've already told you that if you worship a Jesus who no longer reveals revelation to his church both personally and through his authorized messengers, you are not worshipping the same Jesus that we (LDS) worship.

I reject what your apostles and prophets say about who Jesus really is and I agree with what Kimball and Hinkley and others say in that some LDS believe in a different Jesus.

Okay, but as I've said, if you worship a Jesus who no longer reveals revelation to his church both personally and through his authorized messengers, you are not worshipping the same Jesus that we (LDS) worship.

We (LDS) are not the ones who deny continuing revelation from Jesus Christ both personally and through his authorized messengers, including his true prophets and apostles who are living today on this Earth... but if you do, then you are not worshipping the Jesus that we (LDS) worship.

Why is this so important? Because believing in a false jesus will not get anyone into heaven. And I care about LDS.

If you want to get to heaven, I suggest you start living by EVERY word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God, both personally and through his authorized messengers... including Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor... Ezra Benson, Howard Hunter, Gordon Hinckley, Thomas Monson, Henry Eyring, Dieter Uchtdorf, Boyd Packer ... the list goes on and on.

If you deny one true prophet of God who is actually speaking for God, with God's authority, you're in mighty big trouble, young lady, and I would not want to stand before God in those circumstances on the day of final judgment.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

--- "Don't get mad--get VLAD!" For some reason that old Glad plastic bags commercial popped into my mind. Sorry.

LOL. You can add that to our "Evanly Father" John Calvin.

(That still cracks me up, jeff!)

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

LOL. You can add that to our "Evanly Father" John Calvin. (That still cracks me up, jeff!)

---You still remember that? The only time I think about it is when you bring it up every 6 months or so. (Just not many occasions to put it to use, I guess.)

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---You still remember that? The only time I think about it is when you bring it up every 6 months or so. (Just not many occasions to put it to use, I guess.)

I've got a good memory for quips that crack me up, jeff...so YES, I still remember that.

[PostTribber]

Originally Posted by theway

What's sad is you may have rejected the LDS church, based on your understanding or by the understanding of critics.

... or based on the truth!

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Charity

Dearly Beloved,

LDS believe those of us former LDS that post here at Walter Martin are going to Outer Darkness. We've been lead away by the devil for not having a testimony of all the covenants and doctrines of Mormonism.

Evangelicals believe LDS have not received the Jesus Christ of the Bible and are unredeemed and thus are going to hell.

Is this the gist of it?

Do LDS tell us we're going to Outer Darkness and are concerned for us. Not that I've experienced. Do evangelicals tell the LDS they're in danger of hell fire? Yes.

Do we speak the truth in love? Can the truth be accepted in any other way?

People are going to hell.

We are all beloved of God and He desires that none of us perish. How can we love those that are perishing?

This is not a rebuke. It's my hearts cry. I'm thinking out loud to myself and wonder what you think?

Why are you here at Walter Martin? Is this a forum where we defend the truth without caring? Do we protect our hearts at all cost?

Sincerely in Grace,Charity

Please take the time to learn our true position on this particular topic. Your concern while I believe it to be well intentioned is never the less misguided.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

I know LDS doctrine only too well, vlad.

Listen to the reality of Mormon teaching:

3 heavens.
NO HELL

Although LDS pay lip service to "Outer Darkness" or "Hell" you guys deny the doctrine in practice...I mean you're the guys who believe MURDERERS, RAPISTS, all sorts of the most evil people imaginable will go to the LOWEST KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

So why don't you get real, vlad??

Actually, whenever I give this lesson I refer to it as one heaven and three degrees of hell, because for me, being out of the presence of my Father in Heaven would be hell, especially when I would be eternally reminded of what was possible.
But to be technical, the abode of the Sons of Perdition is the only permanent hell.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

I know LDS doctrine only too well,Vlad.

Listen to the reality of Mormon teaching:3 heavens. NO HELL.

Although LDS pay lip service to "Outer Darkness" or "Hell" you guys deny the doctrine in practice...I mean you're the guys who believe MURDERERS,RAPISTS,all sorts of the most evil people imaginable will go to the LOWEST KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. So why don't you get real,Vlad??

The Book of Mormon teaches us that hell is a reality. The experience of hell is a state of guilt,pain,anguish,torment,despair and horror which torment is like an unquenchable fire. Hell is a permanent condition for some and a temporary condition for most. The Book of Mormon speaks of only two groups of people who inhabit the post mortal spirit world. The righteous who are in paradise and the wicked who will be resurrected to an endless hell. The Book of Mormon does not speak of kingdoms of glory or levels of heaven. However it teaches us that all men will be resurrected and return to the presence of God to be judged of their works. As our works are so varied this necessitates different levels of reward.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Charity

You either worship the Jesus of the Bible or the Jesus of the Latter-day Saint Church. They're not one in the same. They can't be both because they're opposed to one another where salvation is concerned and salvation is very important in Christianity. President Kimball said as much. Are you fami**** with his statement? I would think a Prophet of God's knowledge would be sufficient. What's so difficult about saying it? Why beat around the bush.

What say you?

Charity

If you so concerned with Latter-day Saints being straightforward then why don't you set the example? You've left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints yet you can not leave it alone. The true intent of your thread is not to ask us sincere questions but to serve as a staging point for you to start an argument with us.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by theway

Actually, whenever I give this lesson I refer to it as one heaven and three degrees of hell, because for me, being out of the presence of my Father in Heaven would be hell, especially when I would be eternally reminded of what was possible.
But to be technical, the abode of the Sons of Perdition is the only permanent hell.

There's a term for your tactic, and it's called, "equivocation".

[Father_JD]

Hell is a permanent condition for some and a temporary condition for most.

Now, try defending THAT sentiment from the Bible.


Oh, I forgot. You can't.

[nrajeff]

Hell was a temporary condition, because it ended when Bob terminated our presence there....

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Hell was a temporary condition, because it ended when Bob terminated our presence there....

Funny as usual, jeff.


Thanks!

[Mesenja]

No the reality is that you have demonstrated conclusively for all to see that you have absolutely no clue as to our doctrinal teachings. You boasted to Vlad that you knew "the reality of Mormon teaching" and then went on to say that we did not believe in the concept of Hell. Now you are trying to back peddle from this in a desperate attempt to distance yourself from your previous statements. My ability or lack of ability to defend Latter-day Saint (Mormon) doctrines as found in the Book of Mormon from the Bible is irrelevant. I have proven that you are wrong from The Book of Mormon. Deal with this.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Now, try defending THAT sentiment from the Bible. Oh,I forgot. You can't.

This is deflection pure and simple. No matter what anyone says or how they say it,no matter if they are dead right true,one of your favourite responses will always be to deflect from the topic at hand as you have demonstrated here. Here is what you said previously.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Listen to the reality of Mormon teaching:

3 heavens.
NO HELL

Although LDS pay lip service to "Outer Darkness" or "Hell" you guys deny the doctrine in practice...I mean you're the guys who believe MURDERERS,RAPISTS,all sorts of the most evil people imaginable will go to the LOWEST KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. So why don't you get real,Vlad??

Now,try defending that sentiment from The Book of Mormon. Oh,I forgot. You can't.

Samuel Goldwyn - "I'm willing to admit that I may not always be right, but I am never wrong."

[Father_JD]

You keep missing it:

"Hell" exists in Mormon doctrine.

The equivocation of Mormonism?

No one EVER really goes there but to one of the "lower kingdoms" thereby making the existence of "hell" MOOT.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

You keep missing it:

"Hell" exists in Mormon doctrine.

The equivocation of Mormonism?

No one EVER really goes there but to one of the "lower kingdoms" thereby making the existence of "hell" MOOT.

Nonsense go back and read what I said

But to be technical, the abode of the Sons of Perdition is the only permanent hell.

But still you managed to miss it a few times already on this thread.
There is a temporary hell and one permanent hell.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by theway

Nonsense go back and read what I said

But still you managed to miss it a few times already on this thread.
There is a temporary hell and one permanent hell.

"Go back and read WHAT I SAID"????

Are you back to changing aliases yet again, Mesenja/Gentoo/nom du jour???

There is NO temporary hell according to the BIBLE....
But yes, I'm quite aware of MORMON LIP-SERVICE to the "permanent hell" to which only ex-Mormons go to.

And then you've got your typical Mormon equivocation that the two "lower kingdoms" cons***ute "hell".

All depends on whom you're talking to. I know of LDS who completely DENY any hell of any kind...only a "spiritual prison" and NOTHING MORE.

[Mesenja]

First you say to Vlad:"Listen to the reality of Mormon teaching:3 heavens. NO HELL."

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Listen to the reality of Mormon teaching:3 heavens. NO HELL
Although LDS pay lip service to "Outer Darkness" or "Hell" you guys deny the doctrine in practice...I mean you're the guys who believe MURDERERS,RAPISTS,all sorts of the most evil people imaginable will go to the LOWEST KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. So why don't you get real,Vlad??

Then your next post tells us that "'Hell' exists in Mormon doctrine."

Originally Posted by Father_JD

You keep missing it:"Hell" exists in Mormon doctrine.
The equivocation of Mormonism? No one EVER really goes there but to one of the "lower kingdoms" thereby making the existence of "hell" MOOT.

And I am the one who keeps missing it?

[Mesenja]

If there was any doubt left in any ones mind that you may have some knowledge of Latter-day Saint doctrine and practice this is irrefutable evidence that you have absolutely no clue.

Originally Posted by Father_JD

But yes,I'm quite aware of MORMON LIP-SERVICE to the "permanent hell" to which only ex-Mormons go to.

And then you've got your typical Mormon equivocation that the two "lower kingdoms" cons***ute "hell".

All depends on whom you're talking to. I know of LDS who completely DENY any hell of any kind...only a "spiritual prison" and NOTHING MORE.

1. We don't believe that only ex-Mormons will go to hell.

2. We don't believe that the lower kingdoms of glory cons***utes hell.

3. We don't believe that the spiritual prison is equivalent to hell.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

1. We don't believe that only ex-Mormons will go to hell.

True, or I agree.

2. We don't believe that the lower kingdoms of glory cons***utes hell.

True, or I agree, technically, but I can understand how it can be considered hell to not return to our Father in heaven.

3. We don't believe that the spiritual prison is equivalent to hell.

Actually, this is a bit off, because spiritual prison is hell, in a certain sense.

Here is what our (LDS) Bible Dictionary says about Hell, with some highlights:

An English translation of the Hebrew word Shoel, hell signifies an abode of departed spirits and corresponds to the Greek Hades. In common speech it generally denotes the place of torment for the wicked, although it has been often held, both in the Jewish and the Christian churches, that Hades (meaning broadly the place of all departed spirits) consists of two parts, paradise and Gehenna, one the abode of the righteous and the other of the disobedient. “Gehenna,” or “Gehenna of fire,” is the Greek equivalent of the “valley of Hinnom,” a deep glen of Jerusalem where the idolatrous Jews offered their children to Moloch (2 Chr. 28: 3; 2 Chr. 33: 6; Jer. 7: 31; Jer. 19: 2-6). It was afterwards used as a place for burning the refuse of the city (2 Kgs. 23: 10), and in that way became symbolical of the place of torment (Matt. 5: 22, 29-30; Matt. 10: 28; Matt. 18: 9; Matt. 23: 15, 33; Mark 9: 43, 45, 47; Luke 12: 5; James 3: 6). Expressions about “hell-fire” are probably due to the impression produced on men’s minds by the sight of this ceaseless burning, and are figurative of the torment of those who willfully disobey God.
In latter-day revelation hell is spoken of in at least two senses. One is the temporary abode in the spirit world of those who were disobedient in this mortal life. It is between death and the resurrection, and persons who receive the telestial glory will abide there until the last resurrection (D&C 76: 84-85, 106), at which time they will go to the telestial glory. In this sense the Book of Mormon speaks of spiritual death as hell (2 Ne. 9: 10-12). Hell, as thus defined, will have an end, when all the captive spirits have paid the price of their sins and enter into a degree of glory after their resurrection. Statements about an everlasting hell (Hel. 6: 28; Moro. 8: 13) must be interpreted in their proper context in the light of D&C 19: 4-12, which defines eternal and endless punishment.
On the other hand, the devil and his angels, including the sons of perdition, are ***igned to a place spoken of as a lake of fire - a figure of eternal anguish. This condition is sometimes called hell in the scriptures (2 Pet. 2: 4; D&C 29: 38; D&C 88: 113). This kind of hell, which is after the resurrection and judgment, is exclusively for the devil and his angels, and is not the same as that consisting only of the period between death and resurrection. The one group are redeemed from hell and inherit some degree of glory. The other receive no glory. They continue in spiritual darkness. For them the conditions of hell remain. – Hell

[Father_JD]

Thanks for demonstrating that no two Mormons can agree even on basic Mormon doctrine.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

If there was any doubt left in any ones mind that you may have some knowledge of Latter-day Saint doctrine and practice this is irrefutable evidence that you have absolutely no clue.


1. We don't believe that only ex-Mormons will go to hell.

2. We don't believe that the lower kingdoms of glory cons***utes hell.

3. We don't believe that the spiritual prison is equivalent to hell.

LOL. And WHO are you to define Mormon doctrine??

Who ELSE goes to hell, M. when it's official LDS doctrine that even the worst kinds of people go at least to the lowest "kingdom"???

I have heard LDS leaders equate the lower kingdoms with hell.
I have heard LDS leaders equate "spirit prison" as a short-term "hell" or purgatory.

Whom are we to believe, especially in light of the CONTRADICTIONS between even your own "prophets" regarding basic LDS doctrine??

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Thanks for demonstrating that no two Mormons can agree even on basic Mormon doctrine.

Thank you for demonstrating how devoid you are of the Holy Spirit, Father_JD.

[Father_JD]

You're NOT listening:

You pay lip-service to the existence of "hell", BUT DENY IT COMPLETELY IN PRACTICE AND IN YOUR TEACHING.

And yes, you're the one who keeps missing THIS POINT.