My Hearts Cry

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Thank you for demonstrating how devoid you are of the Holy Spirit, Father_JD.

LOL. You were taking the M. dude to task for not telling "ALL" of it, BM. Thanks for setting him straight as well as demonstrating the disunity of Mormon belief on major issues.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

You pay lip-service to the existence of "hell", BUT DENY IT COMPLETELY IN PRACTICE AND IN YOUR TEACHING.

I don't do that, Father_JD. I reject your accusation, completely.

And yes, you're the one who keeps missing THIS POINT.

No, you are the one, or one of the ones, who keeps missing THIS point, Father_JD.

I teach and agree with the teachings concerning the fact that there is and will be a Hell for all people who are disobedient to God, and that all people will go to Hell unless they repent from ALL of their sins.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

LOL. You were taking the M. dude to task for not telling "ALL" of it, BM.

He was off just a little bit, Father_JD. I simply told him what we actually teach.

Thanks for setting him straight as well as demonstrating the disunity of Mormon belief on major issues.

The doctrine is true and perfect, Father_JD.

It's just we (LDS) who are not perfect, yet.

... and FYI, you are not perfect either, so don't go throwing rocks.

[Father_JD]

"He was off a little bit".

What you don't understand is that you're ALL OFF...but not a "little bit", but by a chasm-sized bit.

[Father_JD]

Yes, that's what YOU believe...but Mormon universalism denies it.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

"He was off a little bit".

What you don't understand is that you're ALL OFF...but not a "little bit", but by a chasm-sized bit.

It depends on your perspective, I suppose.

Compared to God, we all have a long way to go to be as perfect as him.

Compared to you, though, you are the one who needs to catch up.

... and trying to drag us down or slow us down only makes you look worse.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Yes, that's what YOU believe...but Mormon universalism denies it.

Does not.

I reject another one of your accusations, yet again.

[Father_JD]

You will never become as "perfect as him" by YOUR OWN EFFORTS, BM. You show you don't understand the meaning of GRACE.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Does not.

I reject another one of your accusations, yet again.

And what would it take to convince you otherwise??? Something out of "Mormon Doctrine" by McConkie, etc?

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

You will never become as "perfect as him" by YOUR OWN EFFORTS, BM. You show you don't understand the meaning of GRACE.

Grace is only effective for those who repent, or desire to repent.

You sin, you lose... unless you repent.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

And what would it take to convince you otherwise???

God telling me that I am wrong.

That's all.

I see your opinion as only your opinion, until I know God agrees with you.

... and, generally speaking, God doesn't agree with your perception of "Mormonism".

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Grace is only effective for those who repent, or desire to repent.

You sin, you lose... unless you repent.

As I said before, you do NOT understand the meaning of "grace" in the salvivic sense:

UNMERITED FAVOR.

It's not a REWARD or "effictive" for those who repent...GRACE IS THE BASIS OF ENABLING REPENTANCE AND/OR THE DESIRE TO REPENT.

Now, please note WHICH Biblical MEANING of GRACE I am using.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

God telling me that I am wrong.

That's all.

I see your opinion as only your opinion, until I know God agrees with you.

... and, generally speaking, God doesn't agree with your perception of "Mormonism".

God already told you're wrong, but you REFUSE to believe His Word, THE BIBLE.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

God already told you're wrong, but you REFUSE to believe His Word, THE BIBLE.

No, Father_JD.

God tells me that I am on the right path, and I accept what God tells me.

I don't agree with you or your perception of the Bible, generally, but I do agree with God and what God has inspired men to write in the Holy Bible.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

As I said before, you do NOT understand the meaning of "grace" in the salvivic sense:

UNMERITED FAVOR.

It's not a REWARD or "effictive" for those who repent...GRACE IS THE BASIS OF ENABLING REPENTANCE AND/OR THE DESIRE TO REPENT.

Now, please note WHICH Biblical MEANING of GRACE I am using.

I've already told you how grace works, Father_JD.

If you sin, you don't have it, and you won't until you repent or desire to repent.

God doesn't give grace to pardon those who refuse to repent.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

He was off just a little bit, Father_JD. I simply told him what we actually teach.

Glad for your input and the time you spent going into more detail about this subject. The trouble with Father_JD is that he spends to much time trying to "strain at a gnat [i.e. our supposed doctrinal disunity] and swallow a camel [i.e. accept the tenants of Calvinism]." (Matthew 23:23-24)

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

And what would it take to convince you otherwise??? Something out of "Mormon Doctrine" by McConkie,etc?

A sound argument taken from the four standard works of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. What say you Bat-Man?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

No, Father_JD.

God tells me that I am on the right path, and I accept what God tells me.

I don't agree with you or your perception of the Bible, generally, but I do agree with God and what God has inspired men to write in the Holy Bible.

Sorry to break this to ya sonny, but God NEVER told you were on the right path with Mormonism.

It CONTRADICTS the Bible's teaching right and left. That's WHY Christians can be bold as lions in denouncing your doctrine.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

A sound argument taken from the four standard works of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. What say you Bat-Man?

LOL. You've set a goal post only to move it later once you start squirming with what's found therein.

Think about this:

If the "Four Standard Works" are the ONLY AUTHORITATIVE source, then you can't have it both ways and claim:

1. Living prophets whose words are binding in "The Ensign", etc.
2. Living apostles whose words are binding in "The Ensign" or any other Mormon publication.

You guys play both sides and then you wonder why we find your tactics less than honest!

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

I've already told you how grace works, Father_JD.

If you sin, you don't have it, and you won't until you repent or desire to repent.

God doesn't give grace to pardon those who refuse to repent.

Given the MEANING of salvivic GRACE, i.e. UNMERITED FAVOR, it can't be reckoned as a "reward" to those who DO repent.

It's by virtue of the GRACE BESTOWED THAT ONE DOES REPENT.

[Libby]

Yes...we are saved by grace through faith...Ephesians 2

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in tresp***es and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes...we are saved by grace through faith...Ephesians 2

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in tresp***es and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Libby, a careful look at verse 8 and 9 will indicate that FAITH is the gift, and Faith is not man-made. Or, if you prefer, SALVATION is the gift, and is not man made.

A GIFT, by definition, is something we did not make ourselves. But it does not need to mean that we have no business being deserving of the GIFT.

And it isn't saying that works have nothing to do with salvation.

IMO.

Thanks.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Libby, a careful look at verse 8 and 9 will indicate that FAITH is the gift, and Faith is not man-made. Or, if you prefer, SALVATION is the gift, and is not man made.

A GIFT, by definition, is something we did not make ourselves. But it does not need to mean that we have no business being deserving of the GIFT.

And it isn't saying that works have nothing to do with salvation.

IMO.

Thanks.

Fig, I think verse 9 makes it clear that faith (and repentance, for that matter, which is really what I intended to address, but didn't make that clear) is an unmerited favor from God. ("not of works, lest any man should boast").

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Libby, a careful look at verse 8 and 9 will indicate that FAITH is the gift, and Faith is not man-made. Or, if you prefer, SALVATION is the gift, and is not man made.

A GIFT, by definition, is something we did not make ourselves. But it does not need to mean that we have no business being deserving of the GIFT.

And it isn't saying that works have nothing to do with salvation.

IMO.

Thanks.

Incredible that you apparently can NOT understand the p***age, Fig!

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It is NOT OF OURSELVES which MEANS we can NOT do anything to be "deserving".

Sheesh. And what don't you understand of "NOT BY WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST"???


Salvation:

By Grace, through Faith, NOT of works = by GRACE ALONE, THROUGH FAITH ALONE.

[seebok]

Originally Posted by Libby

Fig, I think verse 9 makes it clear that faith (and repentance, for that matter, which is really what I intended to address, but didn't make that clear) is an unmerited favor from God. ("not of works, lest any man should boast").

Hi Libby

Just curious, where are you now during this cycle back to Evangelicalism? My observation is that you seem to me to be in more of a Calvin mode where if works have anything at all to do with eternal end-condition, sola fide and sola gratia are abandoned.

Of course you realize that Evangelicals are aggressively beginning to recognize what the Bible says, namely, that how we comport ourselves in this life matters in eternity. Erwin Lutzer, head pastor at Moody talks about the difference between "entering" Heaven and "inheriting" heaven. "Entering" cons***utes salvation, "inheriting" is something separate and meritorious. The compartmentalization helps them to maintain the optic of sola fide and sola gratia.

To see how big a deal rewards are becoming to Evangelicals, Try these short books:

Erwin W. Lutzer, Your Eternal Reward: Triumph and Tears at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Wheaton, IL: Moody Publishers, 1998)

Bruce Wilkinson, A Life God Rewards: Everything You Do Today Matters Forever (Sisters, OR: Multnomah Publishers, Inc, 2002)

Randy C. Alcorn, The Law of Rewards: Giving What You Can’t Keep to Gain What You Can’t Lose (Wheaton , IL : Tyndale House Publishers, 2003).

There are lots of others, even Hanegraaff got on the bandwagon. The Alcorn book has the best references to the clear statements of the Evangelical biggies like Melanchthon and Edwards which illustrate that the tension has been there for a long time. But now some Evans are boldly acknowledging the merit side of the tension. Good for them, but you already had a church that did that. So don't be so hard on the Church of Jesus Christ for understanding FIRST that our efforts have an indirect impact on our eternal end-condition. Just a caveat, that word, indirect, is very important. It allows grace it's rightful place.

And please don't be too enamored with JD. If you let him, he very well could have you hum'n like a robot in no time, Heaven and rewards there having been eternally determined in some lotto God held before you were born. Life is more than God just controlling your strings precisely according to what He put on his blueprint. JD's approach takes the meaning entirely out of life. It's easier, I'll grant that. But it makes no sense.

Best

Seebok