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Thread: Joseph Smith's First Fraud Conviction

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    Default Joseph Smith's First Fraud Conviction

    Joseph Smith’s First of Two Fraud Convictions

    On March 20, 1826, Joseph Smith, Jr. was brought before the local judge (Justice Neely) in Bainbridge, New York on the charge of being a “disorderly person”. The charge was a catch-all term of art for vagrants, con artists and other undesirables who’s alleged “crimes” were not specifically coded in numbered statutes. Many documents are coming to light that inform us of the truth and the details of this highly revealing event in the life of Joseph Smith. The source of all that we know about Smith’s trial and conviction include the arrest warrants, court transcripts and legal bills from four separate charges filed against Smith. These original sources are documented in the following publications:
    “The History of Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania” by Emily C. Blackman (Philadelphia: Claxton, Remsen & Haffelfinger, 1873)

    Apr. 9, 1831 – Dr. A W. Benton’s letter published in Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate

    Oct. 1835 - Oliver Cowdery’s account in Latter-day Saints Messenger and Advocate

    An 1842 letter from Joel K. Noble (not published until 1977)

    Record torn from Judge Neely docket book by Miss Emily Pearsall (Neely’s niece)

    Apr. 1873 - Frazer's article reprinted in Eclectic Magazine (N.Y.)

    1883 - Tuttle article in New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge

    Jan. 1886 - Christian Advocate vol. 2, no. 13 (Salt Lake City, UT)

    These sources (both Mormon and non-Mormon) are both detailed and summarized in:

    Wesley P. Walters, "Joseph Smith's Bainbridge, N. Y., Court Trials," Westminster Theological Journal, 36:2 (Winter, 1974): 123-155; and...

    “One Nation Under Gods: A History of the Mormon Church” by Richard Abanes and published by Thunder's Mouth Press, 2003

    Additional detail may be scrutinized in THIS LDS source.

    We also have the Isaac Hale affidavit of March 20, 1834, Susquehanna Register, and Northern Pennsylvanian 9 (May 1, 1834): 1, cited in Inventing Mormonism: Tradition and the Historical Record, 69–70 which reads:

    Smith and his father, with several other "money-diggers" boarded at my house while they were employed in digging for a mine that they supposed had been opened and worked by the Spaniards, many years since. Young Smith gave the "money-diggers" great encouragement, at first, but when they had arrived in digging, to near the place where he had stated an immense treasure would be found—he said the enchantment was so powerful that he could not see. They then became discouraged, and soon after dispersed. This took place about the 17th of November, 1825; and one of the company gave me his note for $12[.]68 for his board, which is still unpaid.

    The court record of Smith’s trial resulting in his first fraud conviction follows:

    Warrant issued upon written complaint upon oath of Peter G. Bridgeman, who informed that one Joseph Smith of Bainbridge was a disorderly person and an imposter. Prisoner brought before Court March 20, 1826.

    Prisoner examined: says that he came from the town of Palmyra, and had been at the house of Josiah Stowel in Bainbridge most of time since; had small part of time been employed in looking for mines, but the major part had been employed by said Stowel on his farm, and going to school. That he had a certain stone which he had occasionally look at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were; that he professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were at a distance under ground, and had looked for Mr. Stowel several times, and had informed him where he could find these treasures, and Mr. Stowel had been engaged in digging for them. That at Palmyra he pretended to tell by looking at this stone where coined money was buried in Pennsylvania and while at Palmyra had frequently ascertained in that way where lost property was of various kinds; that he had occasionally been in the habit of looking through this stone to find lost property for three years, but of late had pretty much given it up on account of its injuring his health, especially his eyes, making them sore; that he did not solicit business of this kind, and had always declined having anything to do with this business.

    Josiah Stowel sworn: says that prisoner had been at his house something like five months; had been employed by him to work on farm part of time; that he pretended to have skill of telling where hidden treasures in the earth were by means of looking through a certain stone; that prisoner had looked for him sometimes; once to tell him about money buried in Bend Mountain in Pennsylvania, once for gold on Monument Hill, and once for a salt spring; and that he positively knew that the prisoner could tell, and did possess the art of seeing those valuable treasures through the medium of said stone; that he found the [word illegible] at Bend and Monument Hill as prisoner represented it; that prisoner had looked through said stone for Deacon Attleton for a mine, did not exactly find it but got a p- [word unfinished] of ore which resembled gold, he thinks; that prisoner had told by means of this stone where a Mr. Bacon had buried money; that he and prisoner had been in search of it; that prisoner had said it was in a certain root of a stump five feet from the surface of the earth, and with it would be found a tail feather; that said Stowel and prisoner thereupon commenced digging, found a tail feather, but money was gone; that he supposed the money moved down. That prisoner did offer his services; that he never deceived him; that prisoner looked through stone and described Josiah Stowel’s house and outhouses, while at Palmyra at Simpson Stowel’s, correctly; that he had told about a painted tree, with a man’s head painted upon it, by means of said stone. That he had been in company with prisoner digging for gold, and had the most implicit faith in prisoner’s skill.

    Arad Stowel sworn: says that he went to see whether prisoner could convince him that he possessed the skill he professed to have, upon which prisoner laid a book upon a white cloth, and proposed looking through another stone which was white and transparent, hold the stone to the candle, turn his head to look, and read. The deception appeared so palpable that witness went off disgusted.

    McMaster sworn: says he went with Arad Stowel, and likewise came away disgusted. Prisoner pretended to him that he could discover objects at a distance by holding this white stone to the sun or candle; that prisoner rather declined looking into a hat at his dark colored stone, as he said that it hurt his eyes.

    Jonathon Thompson: says that prisoner was requested to look for chest of money; did look, and pretended to know where it was; and prisoner, Thompson and Yeomans went in search of it; that Smith arrived at spot first; was at night; that Smith looked in hat while there, and when very dark, and told how the chest was situated. After digging several feet, struck something sounding like a board or plant. Prisoner would not look again, pretending that he was alarmed on account of the circumstances relating to the trunk being buried [which] came all fresh to his mind. That the last time he looked he discovered distinctly the two Indians who buried the trunk, that a quarrel ensued between them, and that one of said Indians was killed by the other, and thrown into the hold beside the trunk, to guard it, as he supposed. Thompson says that he believes in the prisoner’s professed skill; that the board he struck his spade upon was probably the chest, but on account of an enchantment the trunk kept settling away from under them when digging; that notwithstanding they continued constantly removing the dirt, yet the trunk kept about the same distance from them. Says prisoner said that it appeared to him that salt might be found at Bainbridge, and that he is certain that prisoner can divine things by means of said stone. That as evidence of the fact prisoner looked into his hat to tell him about some money witness lost sixteen years ago, and that he described the amn the witness supposed had taken it, and the disposition of the money: And therefore the Court find the Defendant guilty.

    Of this incident, Thomas Ferguson, founder of BYU Archaeology Dept. in recognizing Joseph Smith's fraud conviction said:
    In 1826 Joseph Smith was 21 and at this point was midway between the first vision and 1830 {i.e. between his days as a money-digging con artist and the beginning of his career as a “prophet”}. What a strange time to be convicted of fraud – fraudulently getting money after convincing the victim that he could detect the whereabouts of hidden treasure on the victim’s land. Wow.... It is as genuine and sound as can be – published right in Joseph Smith’s own camp. (speaking to the author on March 13, 1971; and published in “Mormon Mavericks: Essays on Dissenters” by James Bovak, pp. 261-262)
    A "strange time" indeed ...but only for those who cling to the notion that Joseph Smith was NOT an occult con artist. For those of us who recognize the fact that he clearly WAS an occult con artist, Smith, in going forward with his little magic rock to found the Mormon religion was simply living down to our expectations.

    To this day, Mormons continue in Smith's tradition.

    -BH

    .
    Last edited by BrianH; 06-15-2009 at 09:11 AM.
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    Brian:

    Your distaste for the Lord’s Prophet Joseph is shown clearly in this complete and utter nonsense.

    The only charge that can be accurately documented is that of “disorder”.

    Joseph was 21 years of age when this occurred, what could you have been accused of at 21 years of age Brian.

    Should we do a search to find out?

    Novato

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    Your distaste for the Lord’s Prophet Joseph is shown clearly in this complete and utter nonsense
    Your failure to address, let alone refute the facts in evidence is obvious. What makes you think that Jospeh Smith was the Lord's "prophet"?

    The only charge that can be accurately documented is that of “disorder”.
    No ...the FACT is that your "prophet" was enganged in fraud. That is unless you believe that he REALLY COULD find burried Spanish treasure using the little magic rock in the hat he had jammed over his face. If that is the case, you will have to produce some evidence of his success. Otherwise you are faced with the FACT of his documented fraudulence.

    Joseph was 21 years of age when this occurred, what could you have been accused of at 21 years of age Brian.
    (mod edit)

    Should we do a search to find out?
    Sure ...go ahead; suit yourself. But then explain how the results of your search have anything to do with the actual topic here.

    -BH

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    Last edited by BrianH; 06-15-2009 at 07:25 AM.
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    "Convince us of our errors of doctrine if we have any, by reason, by logical argument, or by the word of God and we will be ever grateful for the information and you will ever have the the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God in redeeming your fellow beings from the darnkess which you may see enveloping their minds" - The Seer, Orsen Pratt, Mormon “Apostle”

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    Joseph Smith’s First of Two Fraud Convictions

    On March 20, 1826, Joseph Smith, Jr. was brought before the local judge (Justice Neely) in Bainbridge, New York on the charge of being a “disorderly person”. The charge was a catch-all term of art for vagrants, con artists and other undesirables who’s alleged “crimes” were not specifically coded in numbered statutes. Many documents are coming to light that inform us of the truth and the details of this highly revealing event in the life of Joseph Smith. The source of all that we know about Smith’s trial and conviction include the arrest warrants, court transcripts and legal bills from four separate charges filed against Smith. These original sources are documented in the following publications:
    “The History of Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania” by Emily C. Blackman (Philadelphia: Claxton, Remsen & Haffelfinger, 1873)

    Apr. 9, 1831 – Dr. A W. Benton’s letter published in Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate

    Oct. 1835 - Oliver Cowdery’s account in Latter-day Saints Messenger and Advocate

    An 1842 letter from Joel K. Noble (not published until 1977)

    Record torn from Judge Neely docket book by Miss Emily Pearsall (Neely’s niece)

    Apr. 1873 - Frazer's article reprinted in Eclectic Magazine (N.Y.)

    1883 - Tuttle article in New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge

    Jan. 1886 - Christian Advocate vol. 2, no. 13 (Salt Lake City, UT)

    These sources (both Mormon and non-Mormon) are both detailed and summarized in:

    Wesley P. Walters, "Joseph Smith's Bainbridge, N. Y., Court Trials," Westminster Theological Journal, 36:2 (Winter, 1974): 123-155; and...

    “One Nation Under Gods: A History of the Mormon Church” by Richard Abanes and published by Thunder's Mouth Press, 2003

    Additional detail may be scrutinized in THIS LDS source.

    We also have the Isaac Hale affidavit of March 20, 1834, Susquehanna Register, and Northern Pennsylvanian 9 (May 1, 1834): 1, cited in Inventing Mormonism: Tradition and the Historical Record, 69–70 which reads:

    Smith and his father, with several other "money-diggers" boarded at my house while they were employed in digging for a mine that they supposed had been opened and worked by the Spaniards, many years since. Young Smith gave the "money-diggers" great encouragement, at first, but when they had arrived in digging, to near the place where he had stated an immense treasure would be found—he said the enchantment was so powerful that he could not see. They then became discouraged, and soon after dispersed. This took place about the 17th of November, 1825; and one of the company gave me his note for $12[.]68 for his board, which is still unpaid.

    The court record of Smith’s trial resulting in his first fraud conviction follows:

    Warrant issued upon written complaint upon oath of Peter G. Bridgeman, who informed that one Joseph Smith of Bainbridge was a disorderly person and an imposter. Prisoner brought before Court March 20, 1826.

    Prisoner examined: says that he came from the town of Palmyra, and had been at the house of Josiah Stowel in Bainbridge most of time since; had small part of time been employed in looking for mines, but the major part had been employed by said Stowel on his farm, and going to school. That he had a certain stone which he had occasionally look at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were; that he professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were at a distance under ground, and had looked for Mr. Stowel several times, and had informed him where he could find these treasures, and Mr. Stowel had been engaged in digging for them. That at Palmyra he pretended to tell by looking at this stone where coined money was buried in Pennsylvania and while at Palmyra had frequently ascertained in that way where lost property was of various kinds; that he had occasionally been in the habit of looking through this stone to find lost property for three years, but of late had pretty much given it up on account of its injuring his health, especially his eyes, making them sore; that he did not solicit business of this kind, and had always declined having anything to do with this business.

    Josiah Stowel sworn: says that prisoner had been at his house something like five months; had been employed by him to work on farm part of time; that he pretended to have skill of telling where hidden treasures in the earth were by means of looking through a certain stone; that prisoner had looked for him sometimes; once to tell him about money buried in Bend Mountain in Pennsylvania, once for gold on Monument Hill, and once for a salt spring; and that he positively knew that the prisoner could tell, and did possess the art of seeing those valuable treasures through the medium of said stone; that he found the [word illegible] at Bend and Monument Hill as prisoner represented it; that prisoner had looked through said stone for Deacon Attleton for a mine, did not exactly find it but got a p- [word unfinished] of ore which resembled gold, he thinks; that prisoner had told by means of this stone where a Mr. Bacon had buried money; that he and prisoner had been in search of it; that prisoner had said it was in a certain root of a stump five feet from the surface of the earth, and with it would be found a tail feather; that said Stowel and prisoner thereupon commenced digging, found a tail feather, but money was gone; that he supposed the money moved down. That prisoner did offer his services; that he never deceived him; that prisoner looked through stone and described Josiah Stowel’s house and outhouses, while at Palmyra at Simpson Stowel’s, correctly; that he had told about a painted tree, with a man’s head painted upon it, by means of said stone. That he had been in company with prisoner digging for gold, and had the most implicit faith in prisoner’s skill.

    Arad Stowel sworn: says that he went to see whether prisoner could convince him that he possessed the skill he professed to have, upon which prisoner laid a book upon a white cloth, and proposed looking through another stone which was white and transparent, hold the stone to the candle, turn his head to look, and read. The deception appeared so palpable that witness went off disgusted.

    McMaster sworn: says he went with Arad Stowel, and likewise came away disgusted. Prisoner pretended to him that he could discover objects at a distance by holding this white stone to the sun or candle; that prisoner rather declined looking into a hat at his dark colored stone, as he said that it hurt his eyes.

    Jonathon Thompson: says that prisoner was requested to look for chest of money; did look, and pretended to know where it was; and prisoner, Thompson and Yeomans went in search of it; that Smith arrived at spot first; was at night; that Smith looked in hat while there, and when very dark, and told how the chest was situated. After digging several feet, struck something sounding like a board or plant. Prisoner would not look again, pretending that he was alarmed on account of the circumstances relating to the trunk being buried [which] came all fresh to his mind. That the last time he looked he discovered distinctly the two Indians who buried the trunk, that a quarrel ensued between them, and that one of said Indians was killed by the other, and thrown into the hold beside the trunk, to guard it, as he supposed. Thompson says that he believes in the prisoner’s professed skill; that the board he struck his spade upon was probably the chest, but on account of an enchantment the trunk kept settling away from under them when digging; that notwithstanding they continued constantly removing the dirt, yet the trunk kept about the same distance from them. Says prisoner said that it appeared to him that salt might be found at Bainbridge, and that he is certain that prisoner can divine things by means of said stone. That as evidence of the fact prisoner looked into his hat to tell him about some money witness lost sixteen years ago, and that he described the amn the witness supposed had taken it, and the disposition of the money: And therefore the Court find the Defendant guilty.

    Of this incident, Thomas Ferguson, founder of BYU Archaeology Dept. in recognizing Joseph Smith's fraud conviction said:
    In 1826 Joseph Smith was 21 and at this point was midway between the first vision and 1830 {i.e. between his days as a money-digging con artist and the beginning of his career as a “prophet”}. What a strange time to be convicted of fraud – fraudulently getting money after convincing the victim that he could detect the whereabouts of hidden treasure on the victim’s land. Wow.... It is as genuine and sound as can be – published right in Joseph Smith’s own camp. (speaking to the author on March 13, 1971; and published in “Mormon Mavericks: Essays on Dissenters” by James Bovak, pp. 261-262)
    A "strange time" indeed ...but only for those who cling to the notion that Joseph Smith was NOT an occult con artist. For those of us who recognize the fact that he clearly WAS an occult con artist, Smith, in going forward with his little magic rock to found the Mormon religion was simply living down to our expectations.

    To this day, Mormons continue in Smith's tradition.

    -BH

    .
    Who cares?

    Do you care that Jesus was accused by his enemies?

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    Who cares?
    Not Mormons, that much is certain.

    Do you care that Jesus was accused by his enemies?
    Sure. Moreover, I care that he proved them wrong.

    Don't you wish you could vindicate your so-called "prophet". Don't you wish you could provide some reasons to think that he really WAS a "prophet"? Too bad for you that you CAN'T!

    Your failure to address the facts in evidence here and your shallow effort to simply dismiss them with a flippant, "who cares" only once again provides yet another demonstration of the (mod edit).

    -BH

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    Last edited by BrianH; 06-15-2009 at 10:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    Your failure to address the facts in evidence here and your shallow effort to simply dismiss them with a flippant, "who cares" only once again provides (mod edit) .
    -BH

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    More gratuitous bashing of the Mormon PEOPLE.

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    ...in response to more MINLDESS avoidance of the actual issue.

    Speaking of the actual issue, would you care to address it here? Or are you content to just offer drive-by, hit-and-run expressions of your distaste for my opinion of what Mormonism does to people.

    -BH

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    "Convince us of our errors of doctrine if we have any, by reason, by logical argument, or by the word of God and we will be ever grateful for the information and you will ever have the the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God in redeeming your fellow beings from the darnkess which you may see enveloping their minds" - The Seer, Orsen Pratt, Mormon “Apostle”

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    ...in response to more MINLDESS avoidance of the actual issue.

    Speaking of the actual issue, would you care to address it here? Or are you content to just offer drive-by, hit-and-run expressions of your distaste for my opinion of what Mormonism does to people.

    -BH

    .
    I plan to point out every instance you attack the Mormon PEOPLE, not its doctrines.

    When critics like you claim to be against the Mormon church, but your every thread is bashing the followers of Mormonism, I will point it out.

    We are forbidden to call label you what you really are, and it isn't a critic of MormonISM only.

    So whenever you call LDS PEOPLE names, are condescending to their mindset, or make other disparaging claims about the PEOPLE, I will acknowledge it.

    We'll see who lasts longer, me or you. I'm fine either way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    Not Mormons, that much is certain.



    Sure. Moreover, I care that he proved them wrong.
    .
    Jesus didn't prove them wrong by the standards of their own puny minds. Why should I endeavor to do what Jesus himself failed to do?

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    Jesus didn't prove them wrong by the standards of their own puny minds.
    Sure he did. He was RESURRECTED among them. Now THAT is "proof". Perhaps you can get your so-called "prophet" to resurrect. Or how about this ...how about he just manages to proffer an actual "prophecy" that actually comes to pass! That would at least run the risk of justifying the title he gave himself, at least to some degree, right?

    Why should I endeavor to do what Jesus himself failed to do?
    Yes ...according to Mormons, Jesus "failed".

    Good one, Fig.

    -BH

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    "Convince us of our errors of doctrine if we have any, by reason, by logical argument, or by the word of God and we will be ever grateful for the information and you will ever have the the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God in redeeming your fellow beings from the darnkess which you may see enveloping their minds" - The Seer, Orsen Pratt, Mormon “Apostle”

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    I plan to point out every instance you attack the Mormon PEOPLE, not its doctrines.
    Yet you won't address the actual issue at hand.

    That's what I would expect - you ARE a Mormon, after all, right?

    Thanks for living down to my expectations.

    It would be more interesting if you could find a mentally competent Mormon who can actually engage the subject here instead of demonstrating by means of your own behavior how justifyable my assessment of the Mormon mentality really is.

    -BH

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    "Convince us of our errors of doctrine if we have any, by reason, by logical argument, or by the word of God and we will be ever grateful for the information and you will ever have the the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God in redeeming your fellow beings from the darnkess which you may see enveloping their minds" - The Seer, Orsen Pratt, Mormon “Apostle”

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    Sure he did. He was RESURRECTED among them. Now THAT is "proof". Perhaps you can get your so-called "prophet" to resurrect. Or how about this ...how about he just manages to proffer an actual "prophecy" that actually comes to pass! That would at least run the risk of justifying the title he gave himself, at least to some degree, right?



    Yes ...according to Mormons, Jesus "failed".

    Good one, Fig.

    -BH

    .
    If Jesus proved all the puny minded skeptics wrong in their own puny minds, then there should be no one left who is a skeptic, unless they are all great minds.

    So, why should I endeavor to accomplish what Jesus himself couldn't do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    Yet you won't address the actual issue at hand.

    That's what I would expect - you ARE a Mormon, after all, right?

    Thanks for living down to my expectations.

    It would be more interesting if you could find a mentally competent Mormon who can actually engage the subject here instead of demonstrating by means of your own behavior how justifyable my assessment of the Mormon mentality really is.

    -BH

    .
    More gratuitous bashing of the Mormon PEOPLE.

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    More evasion of the topic.

    Keep on proving my point for me Vlad. Its fun to watch.

    -BH
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    If Jesus proved all the puny minded skeptics wrong in their own puny minds, then there should be no one left who is a skeptic, unless they are all great minds.
    Why would you say something like that?

    So, why should I endeavor to accomplish what Jesus himself couldn't do?
    You seem confused. Jesus OFFERED the proof. Just because some people did not believe it is not any reason to think that he failed to present his proof.

    As for YOUR claims ...you cannot even present any evidence! All you can do is regurgitate the mantras your organization has taught you to repeat or run from the challenge ...as you will now demonstrate, even AFTER I tell you that is exactly what you are going to do as you continue to avoid the actual topic of this thread.

    Typical.

    -BH

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    "Convince us of our errors of doctrine if we have any, by reason, by logical argument, or by the word of God and we will be ever grateful for the information and you will ever have the the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God in redeeming your fellow beings from the darnkess which you may see enveloping their minds" - The Seer, Orsen Pratt, Mormon “Apostle”

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    Why would you say something like that?



    You seem confused. Jesus OFFERED the proof. Just because some people did not believe it is not any reason to think that he failed to present his proof.

    As for YOUR claims ...you cannot even present any evidence! All you can do is regurgitate the mantras your organization has taught you to repeat or run from the challenge ...as you will now demonstrate, even AFTER I tell you that is exactly what you are going to do as you continue to avoid the actual topic of this thread.

    Typical.

    -BH

    .
    More gratuitous bashing of Mormon PEOPLE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post
    More gratuitous bashing of the Mormon PEOPLE.
    The mod edit proves that your contention is valid, so let's move on.

    Can you rise above the personal (BTW thanks for not responding in kind) and address the issue of the OP?

    Brian provided a real court document where JS was convicted of being "disorderly" what ever that meant AT THAT TIME.

    He also supplied a snippet from a BYU source:
    ...midway between the first vision and 1830 {i.e. between his days as a money-digging con artist and the beginning of his career as a “prophet”}. What a strange time to be convicted of fraud – fraudulently getting money after convincing the victim that he could detect the whereabouts of hidden treasure on the victim’s land. Wow.... It is as genuine and sound as can be – published right in Joseph Smith’s own camp. (speaking to the author on March 13, 1971; and published in “Mormon Mavericks: Essays on Dissenters” by James Bovak, pp. 261-262)
    So we have two credible sources, one a RECORDED legal document, and a BYU scholar both saying the same thing. That should be dealt with, and explained.

    As to the accusations against Jesus, accusations and convictions are different things. If you want to bring up up Jesus, fo ahead. You will find that he was NEVER convicted of anything as was JS, and you will find that Pilate found him innocent, for he publically washed his hands of the entire kangaroo court precedings.

    that is also why Novato's comment is irrelevant:
    (1) Your distaste for the Lord’s Prophet Joseph is shown clearly in this complete and utter nonsense.

    (2) The only charge that can be accurately documented is that of “disorder”.

    (3) Joseph was 21 years of age when this occurred, what could you have been accused of at 21 years of age Brian.

    Should we do a search to find out?
    That is because in
    (1) Novato dismisses without cause the facts that the documents represent, and reverts to a personal rebuttal, "Your distaste..." You gotta deal with the facts, there, and they are substantial.

    (2) Brian sdmitted that in 1826, the term "disorderly conduct" does not mean the same as it does now, and he provided the definition used then.
    The charge was a catch-all term of art for vagrants, con artists and other undesirables who’s alleged “crimes” were not specifically coded in numbered statutes. [as they are today]
    Novato supplied no definition, and in doing so inferred that the same definitions used now were in focus then.

    Brian then supplied 8 different sources that buttress his claim
    Many documents are coming to light that inform us of the truth and the details of this highly revealing event in the life of Joseph Smith. The source of all that we know about Smith’s trial and conviction include the arrest warrants, court transcripts and legal bills from four separate charges filed against Smith. These original sources are documented in the following publications:
    We should note that Novato supplied ZERO sources as a counter argument.

    (3) Is entirely irrelevant because it first ignores the issue completely, and then erroneously tries to shift the burden onto what Briam may have done as a 21 years old. As if youth is ever an excuse for criminal behavior and a court trial.

    FINALLY, Novato implied a threat: Should we do a search to find out?

    I am not a district attorney, nor a criminal lawyer, but in my opinion that may be grounds for Brian H to seek legal opinions.
    We attack lies hoping others will see the truth; that is evidence of our particular love for all cultists, not our personal hatred of them.

    Oh, the dumb things we believe when we refuse to look at cold facts.

  18. #18
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    More running like a scared kitten from the actual topic of this thread.

    -BH

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    "Convince us of our errors of doctrine if we have any, by reason, by logical argument, or by the word of God and we will be ever grateful for the information and you will ever have the the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God in redeeming your fellow beings from the darnkess which you may see enveloping their minds" - The Seer, Orsen Pratt, Mormon “Apostle”

  19. #19
    Senior Member Fig-bearing Thistle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    Why would you say something like that?



    You seem confused. Jesus OFFERED the proof. Just because some people did not believe it is not any reason to think that he failed to present his proof.

    As for YOUR claims ...you cannot even present any evidence! All you can do is regurgitate the mantras your organization has taught you to repeat or run from the challenge ...as you will now demonstrate, even AFTER I tell you that is exactly what you are going to do as you continue to avoid the actual topic of this thread.

    Typical.

    -BH

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    Well, the skeptics of Jesus' day would simply deny that Jesus offered any proof at all, and would say that he therefore failed to change their minds.

    So now what?

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    Well, the skeptics of Jesus' day would simply deny that Jesus offered any proof at all, and would say that he therefore failed to change their minds.
    Doesn't matter a bit. The FACT is Jesus presented his resurrected self as PROOF of his claims; the tomb is STILL empty.

    By contrast, YOU cannot even present any evidence in support of your claims.

    Meanwhile, ...SURE ENOUGH, you did exactly what I said you would do, EVEN AFTER I told you that is exactly what you would do! You totally avoided the actual topic of this thread. Its amazing!

    Do you not at least WONDER WHY it is that you cannot bring yourself to actually address the subject of this thread?

    Concentrate, Fig ...concentrate.

    The topic HERE is the first of two of Joseph Smith's convictions of fraud for his engaging in what today is commonly called a "confidence game" (hense the term "con man"). Your so-called "prophet" was an occult con artist. Please either confront the facts in evidence before us all, or go try to derail some OTHER thread.

    -BH

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    Last edited by BrianH; 06-15-2009 at 01:16 PM.
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  21. #21
    Senior Member Fig-bearing Thistle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-Bearing Thistle
    Well, the skeptics of Jesus' day would simply deny that Jesus offered any proof at all, and would say that he therefore failed to change their minds.
    Doesn't matter a bit.
    That's what I already said, but in different words: "Who Cares!"

    This is about as significant as accusing Jesus of gleaning corn on the Sabbath.

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    LOL ...so then the FACT that your "prophet" was a convicted con occult con artist who used his little magic rock-in-the-hat trick to dupe his victims into thinking he could find golden treasure AND to translate "golden plates" of your "scripture" is the equivalent of Jesus gleaning corn on the sabbath.

    I guess when you Mormons cannot refute the facts, all you can do is toss it all off and pretend it doesn't mean anything.

    I can only THANK YOU for ONCE AGAIN actually PROVING the irrational nature of the Mormon "mind".


    -BH
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    "Convince us of our errors of doctrine if we have any, by reason, by logical argument, or by the word of God and we will be ever grateful for the information and you will ever have the the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God in redeeming your fellow beings from the darnkess which you may see enveloping their minds" - The Seer, Orsen Pratt, Mormon “Apostle”

  23. #23
    Senior Member Fig-bearing Thistle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    LOL ...so then the FACT that your "prophet" was a convicted con occult con artist who used his little magic rock-in-the-hat trick to dupe his victims into thinking he could find golden treasure AND to translate "golden plates" of your "scripture" is the equivalent of Jesus gleaning corn on the sabbath.
    Yep. Spurious and ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    I guess when you Mormons cannot refute the facts, all you can do is toss it all off and pretend it doesn't mean anything.

    I can only THANK YOU for ONCE AGAIN actually PROVING the irrational nature of the Mormon "mind".


    -BH
    More gratuitous bashing of Mormon PEOPLE.

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    Yep. Spurious and ridiculous.

    That's it? Is that the BEST you can do? Well ...okay. But your predicable opinion of the FACTS is insufficient as a refutation of those FACTS.

    More gratuitous bashing of Mormon PEOPLE.
    Actually YOU are the one bashing Mormon people by representing them here with your evasive behavior. I am just pointing to YOU, Fig.

    Your failure to refute the facts in evidence is not obscured by your proclaimed victimhood.

    -BH

    .
    __________________

    "Convince us of our errors of doctrine if we have any, by reason, by logical argument, or by the word of God and we will be ever grateful for the information and you will ever have the the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God in redeeming your fellow beings from the darnkess which you may see enveloping their minds" - The Seer, Orsen Pratt, Mormon “Apostle”

  25. #25
    Senior Member Fig-bearing Thistle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    That's it? Is that the BEST you can do? Well ...okay. But your predicable opinion of the FACTS is insufficient as a refutation of those FACTS.
    So said, I'm sure, those who charged Jesus with being a law breaker by gleaning corn on the sabbath.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    Actually YOU are the one bashing Mormon people by representing them here with your evasive behavior. I am just pointing to YOU, Fig.

    Your failure to refute the facts in evidence is not obscured by your proclaimed victimhood.

    -BH

    .
    More gratuitous bashing of the Mormon people.

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