Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 56

Thread: Are you ***ured of salvation?

  1. #1
    tealblue
    Guest

    Default Are you ***ured of salvation?

    Saint Paul didn't think so.

    1 cor 4:4 I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord.
    5
    Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.

    1 cor 9:27 No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified

    Not only did paul not think he was ***ured of salvation but he also thought that he could lose it.

    Rom 11:22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

    Paul also warn us of us too being cut off

    Heb 10:26 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins
    27
    but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

    Again we are warned that deliberate sin results in us being cut off.

    He who endure till the end will be saved Matt 24

    I know there is alot of scripture that says no one will take us out of Gods hands. I would say to that aslong as we remain in the eternal sonship of christ thats true but not if we turn away in sin.

  2. #2
    jean
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tealblue View Post
    Saint Paul didn't think so.

    1 cor 4:4 I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord.
    5
    Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.

    1 cor 9:27 No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified

    Not only did paul not think he was ***ured of salvation but he also thought that he could lose it.

    Rom 11:22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

    Paul also warn us of us too being cut off

    Heb 10:26 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins
    27
    but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

    Again we are warned that deliberate sin results in us being cut off.

    He who endure till the end will be saved Matt 24

    I know there is alot of scripture that says no one will take us out of Gods hands. I would say to that aslong as we remain in the eternal sonship of christ thats true but not if we turn away in sin.
    teal,
    Heb.10:26 is a scripture that we should all pay close attention to. On the positive side however, God is loving and long suffering with sinners who repent.
    ***us 2:11 reads ""for the grace of God that brings salvation has appeaed to all men."
    Heb.1:14 "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"
    1Pet.1:5 "who through faith are shieled by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice."
    2Pet.3:15 :Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him."

    God bless,
    jean

  3. #3
    tealblue
    Guest

    Default

    I just think the once saved always saved additude is dangerous. And unbiblical to say the least. Even to say it was to be totally presumptious about it.

  4. #4
    Bob Carabbio
    Guest

    Default

    It's intrinsic -

    We are saved by our FAITH in the shed blood of Jesus - the provision of God for the remission of our sin.

    IF we have FAITH - (not "belief", "hope", or "doctrinal ***urance" which can give NO security) - then we also possess the ESTABLISHED REALITY of our salvation, - the "substance of it", in fact!!! and being in possession of the Substance and the Evidence of our salvation, then we can confidently claim that we HAVE salvation.

    Case closed.

    If we don't HAVE "faith" in our Savior (which is the ONLY basis for claiming salvation to begin with) - then on what grounds would we have any reason to think we're saved at all????

    I think Paul knew of the "issues" that could effect His state of salvation, and pointed 'em out for us. BUT that he had TOTAL CONFIDENCE in the REALITY of his own salvation is beyond question. It's a FALSE teaching (and a horrendously DANGEROUS one) that we have to "wonder" whether we "made the cut" or not. "Faith" isn't even on the radar with that mindset!!!!
    Last edited by Bob Carabbio; 10-11-2008 at 04:25 PM.

  5. #5
    Leslie
    Guest

    Default

    For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire." - 2 Peter 2:20-22 - ESV


    I think this Scripture shows that a person can lose his faith and backslide back into his sins and become filfthy once again. I don't believe that a person in this state will go to heaven because,

    "Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." - Hebrews 12:14 - ESV


    "But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lambís book of life." - Revelation 21:27 - ESV

    "The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'" - Revelation 3:5-6

    In short, I don't think one can sin and go to heaven. I think if you sin you need to repent over it or you could be in danger of losing your soul. I don't believe in "once saved, always saved" because I've known too many so-called christians who abused that and did all sorts of ungodly things and said that they were still saved. It's always left a bad taste in my mouth.

  6. #6
    tealblue
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carabbio View Post
    It's intrinsic -

    We are saved by our FAITH in the shed blood of Jesus - the provision of God for the remission of our sin.

    IF we have FAITH - (not "belief", "hope", or "doctrinal ***urance" which can give NO security) - then we also possess the ESTABLISHED REALITY of our salvation, - the "substance of it", in fact!!! and being in possession of the Substance and the Evidence of our salvation, then we can confidently claim that we HAVE salvation.

    Case closed.

    If we don't HAVE "faith" in our Savior (which is the ONLY basis for claiming salvation to begin with) - then on what grounds would we have any reason to think we're saved at all????

    I think Paul knew of the "issues" that could effect His state of salvation, and pointed 'em out for us. BUT that he had TOTAL CONFIDENCE in the REALITY of his own salvation is beyond question. It's a FALSE teaching (and a horrendously DANGEROUS one) that we have to "wonder" whether we "made the cut" or not. "Faith" isn't even on the radar with that mindset!!!!

    There is a reason why its said we have HOPE in christ. When paul says he DOES NOT stand aquitted or that he himself might be disqualified why do you say he was fully asured of his salvation. If you read any of Paul's writings nothing he says points to him thinking he was asured of his own salvation.

  7. #7
    Bob Carabbio
    Guest

    Default

    Well, let's see about Paul -

    12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

    37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    seems to me that Paul was pretty confident of his salvation, y'all. I nderstand that the Catholics misrepresent the Bible and try to convince you that you can't know, but since salvation is by FAITH, and that faith is the SUBSTANCE of your salvation - if you DON'T KNOW whether you're saved - then maybe you aren't saved at all.

    I know for sure - have for decades!!

  8. #8
    Bob Carabbio
    Guest

    Default

    Agreed - OSAS isn't a Biblical teaching.

    Equally unBiblical is the old "holiness" - "one sin and you're OUT" teaching.

  9. #9
    Leslie
    Guest

    Default

    So do you believe in the old baptist saying "once saved, always saved"?

    Does that mean that I could go out and sin, not repent over them, get hit by a car and then die and go to heaven?

  10. #10
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    588

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    So do you believe in the old baptist saying "once saved, always saved"?

    Does that mean that I could go out and sin, not repent over them, get hit by a car and then die and go to heaven?
    Hi Leslie,
    I think when people hear the phrase "once saved, always saved", especially people who are in religious systems that tend to lean towards legalisim, they
    get the idea that some Christians believe that once they are born again they can sin anytime they want with no consequences. Of course that is not true. The idea of being always saved in my point of view comes from the truth of the scriptures. Jesus died for all my sin, past, present and future. When I accept the truth of the Gospel, admit my sin, turn from it and trust Him as Savior I am saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Now the problem is what if I sin? Does the indwelling Holy Spirit leave each time I sin? No I have a Mediator who interceedes for me, when I confess my sin He is faithful and just to forgive my sin and cleanse me of all unrightousness. Faithful and just means to me that if I sin and then get hit with a car before I confess, yes I will go to heaven. God looks at a man's heart, his intent and what he places his trust in, not a specific formula. Of course when we sin we are to admit it and repent but that is not what saves us it is grace that saves and keeps one saved.

  11. #11
    Leslie
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hi Leslie,
    I think when people hear the phrase "once saved, always saved", especially people who are in religious systems that tend to lean towards legalisim, they
    get the idea that some Christians believe that once they are born again they can sin anytime they want with no consequences. Of course that is not true. The idea of being always saved in my point of view comes from the truth of the scriptures. Jesus died for all my sin, past, present and future. When I accept the truth of the Gospel, admit my sin, turn from it and trust Him as Savior I am saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Now the problem is what if I sin? Does the indwelling Holy Spirit leave each time I sin? No I have a Mediator who interceedes for me, when I confess my sin He is faithful and just to forgive my sin and cleanse me of all unrightousness. Faithful and just means to me that if I sin and then get hit with a car before I confess, yes I will go to heaven. God looks at a man's heart, his intent and what he places his trust in, not a specific formula. Of course when we sin we are to admit it and repent but that is not what saves us it is grace that saves and keeps one saved.
    So I can die in the very act of adultery, and I'll still go to heaven?

  12. #12
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    588

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    So I can die in the very act of adultery, and I'll still go to heaven?

    Hello again Leslie,
    Jesus said, "if you love me you will keep my commandments", and I believe this to be true but it is not keeping the commandments or the the confessing of the transgressions which imparts salvation, it is God's grace and faith in Jesus Christ. If we are followers of Jesus Christ our life styles will not be the same as those who reject Him, but Christians can also stumble, become deceived and act and react in a sinful manner. Your question was about adultry, what about if you lie in a stressful situation, fight with your neighbor, curse at a driver who cuts you off, look with lust at someone or goof off at work for 20 minutes while your being paid to work(stealing) and you die before you confess any of these things? What person can ever be sure they have confessed every sin they have ever committed? My belief is that Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners and His offer of eternal life had no hidden clauses or tricky fine print. To answer you question, if you are a Christian and you stumble wheather it is adultry or dishonoring your parents and die before confessing I believe you will still have eternal life because Jesus paid the debt for your sin. If you claim to be a Christian and your plan is to lead a sinful life because you believe you have a p*** to sin, then you are in trouble. God sees the heart, and knows who are His own. Is the criteria for eternal life that you must confess every sin before death?

  13. #13
    Trinity
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Your question was about adultry, what about if you lie in a stressful situation, fight with your neighbor, curse at a driver who cuts you off, look with lust at someone or goof off at work for 20 minutes while your being paid to work(stealing) and you die before you confess any of these things? What person can ever be sure they have confessed every sin they have ever committed?
    This is why we the Catholics and the Jews, we believe into a form of purgatory.

    Trinity

  14. #14
    Leslie
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hello again Leslie,
    Jesus said, "if you love me you will keep my commandments", and I believe this to be true but it is not keeping the commandments or the the confessing of the transgressions which imparts salvation, it is God's grace and faith in Jesus Christ. If we are followers of Jesus Christ our life styles will not be the same as those who reject Him, but Christians can also stumble, become deceived and act and react in a sinful manner. Your question was about adultry, what about if you lie in a stressful situation, fight with your neighbor, curse at a driver who cuts you off, look with lust at someone or goof off at work for 20 minutes while your being paid to work(stealing) and you die before you confess any of these things? What person can ever be sure they have confessed every sin they have ever committed? My belief is that Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners and His offer of eternal life had no hidden clauses or tricky fine print. To answer you question, if you are a Christian and you stumble wheather it is adultry or dishonoring your parents and die before confessing I believe you will still have eternal life because Jesus paid the debt for your sin. If you claim to be a Christian and your plan is to lead a sinful life because you believe you have a p*** to sin, then you are in trouble. God sees the heart, and knows who are His own. Is the criteria for eternal life that you must confess every sin before death?
    Maybe I've just had bad experiences with people who believed in Eternal Security and used it as an excuse to sin. I don't know, but I still don't believe you can live in sin and go to heaven, and I still believe that a person can fall from grace by returning to sin and not repenting of it.

  15. #15
    tealblue
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carabbio View Post
    Well, let's see about Paul -

    12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

    37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    seems to me that Paul was pretty confident of his salvation, y'all. I nderstand that the Catholics misrepresent the Bible and try to convince you that you can't know, but since salvation is by FAITH, and that faith is the SUBSTANCE of your salvation - if you DON'T KNOW whether you're saved - then maybe you aren't saved at all.

    I know for sure - have for decades!!

    This says nothing about the possability of being cut off as Paul warns us. I think paul was pretty clear of the possability of it. As far as being saved by faith alone, the word faith alone is only said once in the entire new testement and it says we ARE NOT saved by faith alone. The bible talks of salvation in three terms: Am saved, being saved, and have been saved. Depends on what point of reference the writer is refering to. a paul points out that salvation is a race and those who endure till the end will be saved.

  16. #16
    tealblue
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    Maybe I've just had bad experiences with people who believed in Eternal Security and used it as an excuse to sin. I don't know, but I still don't believe you can live in sin and go to heaven, and I still believe that a person can fall from grace by returning to sin and not repenting of it.
    This brings up another question. If somebody makes a one time profession of faith and you are supposely born again. Why does the born agian effect only take for some people. Some leave the faith and people will say well they were never saved in the first place. At the time the person was honest in their profession but for some reason it didn't work.

  17. #17
    Leslie
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tealblue View Post
    This brings up another question. If somebody makes a one time profession of faith and you are supposely born again. Why does the born agian effect only take for some people. Some leave the faith and people will say well they were never saved in the first place. At the time the person was honest in their profession but for some reason it didn't work.
    Well honestly, I've always found that to be a cop out. Just to tell a little bit about myself. I got saved around 10 or 11 after I heard a fiery sermon from a visiting preacher. His sermon was about people reaching a corner that they might not can ever return from. His point was that you should accept Christ NOW before its too late and that you shouldn't take for granted the opportunity to be saved. I DID repent of my sins, at my house with my mother praying with me. I didn't want to go to hell, I wanted jesus to save me from that aweful fate. For a few years I was a good Christian, I read my little Bible, went to church, prayed etc. When I got into my teenage years I did less of that and got cold in my faith. I stopped reading my Bible as much, didn't pray as often and only went to church on sunday mornings. And sadly, I did things that I know would have sent me to hell for sure.

    When I hit 18-19 I returned to Christ, this time I sought the Lord more seriously and got Sanctified, and later, in my room all by myself praying I recieved the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

    So I fully believe that I backslide and if I would have died in that state I would have went to hell and deserved it. I just thank the Lord that he had mercy on me and allowed me to come back to him. Just saying "well you were never truly saved the first time" doesn't cut it for me, I know what I recieved the first time. I know that I was saved the first time.

  18. #18
    Trinity
    Guest

    Default

    "Human salvation demands the divine disclosure of truths surp***ing reason."---Saint Thomas Aquinas
    We are saved by faith, however, God has many patterns to guide someone to salvation. The truth about ourselves is a truth that is surp***ing our reason. There are many reasonable men that do not know much about themselves. Spiritual blindness is the first truth disclosed by God, and this is just the beginning. There is more truths that are waiting for us after the disclosure of this first truth. Some of those truths can be painful, others are a real bliss.

    Salvation is something that is more complicated than a simple prayer of repentance during an evangelical rally. This is more than words.

    Also, keep in mind that God is patient with the humankind in the same way he is patient with each of us. Do not always expect to be brutalized by him. Anyway, during our spiritual pilgrimage during this present life. By saying this, I do not want to say that life is not testing us. Bad things happen to good people.

    2Timothy 2:13 If we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.

    1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Salvation is an 'amazing race'. Run the race and do not resign or be disqualified. At the end, at the last pit stop, there will be more than a million dollars.

    Jesus has never said that salvation is something that is easy. Sometimes that would request great sacrifices. Obedience and the pursue of new values.

    There is many traps that we should avoid. Salvation can be compared at the equilibrium in a chess game. This is something we should always maintain if we do not want to fall in a trap. Play your life wisely.

    Trinity
    Last edited by Trinity; 10-16-2008 at 01:44 PM.

  19. #19
    Leslie
    Guest

    Default

    I don't think that salvation is too terribly complicated personally. Repent of your sins and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior, that is what the Scripture says. Living a holy and righteous life afterward is just you obeying God. Naturally we cannot do it with our own strength, but as Phillipians 4:13 says, "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

  20. #20
    Bob Carabbio
    Guest

    Default

    Absolutely not -

    I DID believe/teach OSAS for a while until I realized the "OSAS" is of no interest to the Christian who's "pressing in" to God, taking HIS yoke upon them, and LEARNING of him, being obedient to the leadings of the Lord, and resting in HIS salvation.

    OSAS is VERY important to folks who try to define the SMALLEST amount of attention they have to pay to God in order to keep their "fire Insurance" current.

    Serious Christians KNOW they're O.K. because of their relationship with Father through the blood of His Son.

    God's NOT up there just LOOKING for an excuse to consign us to hell - and it's one's faith on the provision of Jesus (not our "belief" in it - devils "believe" - no salvation there, y'all). And SINCE you "Faith" flows from your relationship with HIM, then if you BREAK that relationship - your faith will begin to fade - and become the MEMORY of having had saving faith. I'd be foolish to take a chance on the "memory of having had faith" being salvific.

    There's no such thing as "Purgatorial sanctification", of course - that's only a pagan idea adapted by the Roman Church early in the game, which leads folks to believe that there'll be a "Second chance" after they die. But it's an EMPTY hope, and has no Biblical basis whatsoever (although the Catholic do claim that it does - my favorite is Mat 12:

    32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    The upside down reasoning form silence in this one is exquisite:

    "whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

    i.e. there's a sin that WILL NOT be forgiven in the "world to come" - so by extrapolation the an***hetical case must also exist: - there MUST be sins that WILL be forgiven in the "World to come" VIOLA!!!! Purgatory!!!

  21. #21
    Bob Carabbio
    Guest

    Default

    So then deal with 1 Cor 3:

    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    It's one of your "Purgatory" proof texts.

    Your reference to the James text is a common mistake - since James talks about the NATURE of "saving faith" - i.e. if what YOU call "faith" produces NOTHING in terms of "good works" - that it's NOT faith at all, and won't save you.

    There are plenty of OTHER Biblical p***ages (Many in Romans) that make it clear that salvation is by FAITH, and the WORKS do not contribute to it in any way. That's been true singe Genesis.

  22. #22
    tealblue
    Guest

    Default

    So what do you do with the 100's of other p***ages like the sermon on the mount where jesus says unless you do the will of the father you will not get in or of jesus's words to the young rich ruler to obey his fathers comandments to obtain eternal life? You can't ignore these p***ages and parablels that plainly talk about the direct result of a disobediant lifestlye which is hell. As far as pugatory goes its never been taught as a second chance. The jews belived in purgatory. Its taught as a final purification after death provided one dies in christs eternal friendship.

  23. #23
    Leslie
    Guest

    Default

    As a protestant, I do not believe in purgatory. I do think that it, combined with indulgences makes for one of the best money raising ideas ever thought of though. As our friend, John Tatzel once sung "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs."

    The problem with appealing to Judaism for evidence of purgatory is that the concept is no where found in any of the Old Testament Scriptures. One of the sources for the doctrine is found in II Maccabees, which is strange because if memory serves me the dead jews they prayed for were idolators, which under Catholic doctrine would be a mortal sin and I don't think people who commit mortal sins go to purgatory.

    Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and Sadduecees for adding to the Scriptures with their oral teachings and traditions. He said that they had made the command of God void by the traditions of men. Sadly, I think the same thing has happened with our estranged Catholic bretheren.

  24. #24
    Trinity
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carabbio View Post
    There's no such thing as "Purgatorial sanctification", of course - that's only a pagan idea adapted by the Roman Church early in the game, which leads folks to believe that there'll be a "Second chance" after they die.
    Sorry, but this concept was part of the Jewish theology. Also, that was mentioned in the Jewish literature two hundred years BC.

    Catholicism had borrowed a lot from the Judaic roots. Purgatory is only one element of the Judaic tradition.

    Trinity

  25. #25
    tealblue
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    Well honestly, I've always found that to be a cop out. Just to tell a little bit about myself. I got saved around 10 or 11 after I heard a fiery sermon from a visiting preacher. His sermon was about people reaching a corner that they might not can ever return from. His point was that you should accept Christ NOW before its too late and that you shouldn't take for granted the opportunity to be saved. I DID repent of my sins, at my house with my mother praying with me. I didn't want to go to hell, I wanted jesus to save me from that aweful fate. For a few years I was a good Christian, I read my little Bible, went to church, prayed etc. When I got into my teenage years I did less of that and got cold in my faith. I stopped reading my Bible as much, didn't pray as often and only went to church on sunday mornings. And sadly, I did things that I know would have sent me to hell for sure.

    When I hit 18-19 I returned to Christ, this time I sought the Lord more seriously and got Sanctified, and later, in my room all by myself praying I recieved the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

    So I fully believe that I backslide and if I would have died in that state I would have went to hell and deserved it. I just thank the Lord that he had mercy on me and allowed me to come back to him. Just saying "well you were never truly saved the first time" doesn't cut it for me, I know what I recieved the first time. I know that I was saved the first time.

    If you say you were saved at 10 then backslid where you say you were for sure hell bound then you wern't really saved at 10. If you were truly "saved" then you are saved. Thats why the whole idea of being saved at some point in ones life makes no sense because until the end and one is in the grace of God then nothing is certain.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •