Are you ***ured of salvation?

[tealblue]

Originally Posted by Leslie

Well honestly, I've always found that to be a cop out. Just to tell a little bit about myself. I got saved around 10 or 11 after I heard a fiery sermon from a visiting preacher. His sermon was about people reaching a corner that they might not can ever return from. His point was that you should accept Christ NOW before its too late and that you shouldn't take for granted the opportunity to be saved. I DID repent of my sins, at my house with my mother praying with me. I didn't want to go to hell, I wanted jesus to save me from that aweful fate. For a few years I was a good Christian, I read my little Bible, went to church, prayed etc. When I got into my teenage years I did less of that and got cold in my faith. I stopped reading my Bible as much, didn't pray as often and only went to church on sunday mornings. And sadly, I did things that I know would have sent me to hell for sure.

When I hit 18-19 I returned to Christ, this time I sought the Lord more seriously and got Sanctified, and later, in my room all by myself praying I recieved the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

So I fully believe that I backslide and if I would have died in that state I would have went to hell and deserved it. I just thank the Lord that he had mercy on me and allowed me to come back to him. Just saying "well you were never truly saved the first time" doesn't cut it for me, I know what I recieved the first time. I know that I was saved the first time.

If you say you were saved at 10 then backslid where you say you were for sure hell bound then you wern't really saved at 10. If you were truly "saved" then you are saved. Thats why the whole idea of being saved at some point in ones life makes no sense because until the end and one is in the grace of God then nothing is certain.

[Leslie]

Originally Posted by tealblue

If you say you were saved at 10 then backslid where you say you were for sure hell bound then you wern't really saved at 10. If you were truly "saved" then you are saved. Thats why the whole idea of being saved at some point in ones life makes no sense because until the end and one is in the grace of God then nothing is certain.

By saved I mean that my sins had been forgiven and I was a Christian.

[tealblue]

Originally Posted by Leslie

By saved I mean that my sins had been forgiven and I was a Christian.

I understand what you are saying. As a catholic I don't believe in the born again concept. I believe in conversion but not a one time decision making one saved. I used to believe in this concept and for me it was too easy too just say God is working in me and I hope I will be sactified one day. I know way too many x christians who were once on fire for God and no more.

[disciple]

Hi TB,
As Christians we need to consider what Jesus said as opposed to what we tend to believe or feel is true based on religious teaching or human logic.

Originally Posted by tealblue

I understand what you are saying. As a catholic I don't believe in the born again concept.
I believe in conversion but not a one time decision making one saved. I used to believe in this concept and for me it was too easy too just say God is working in me and I hope I will be sactified one day. I know way too many x christians who were once on fire for God and no more.

Here is what Jesus said in John 3:3,"Jesus answered and said to him, “Most ***uredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Are you disagreeing with this?

How many decisions does one need to make to be saved? Jesus said in John 5:24 "Most ***uredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has p***ed from death into life."
So what is an x christian, some one who has p***ed from death to life and has p***ed back from life to death? Jesus said we must be born again so it is apparent that some people are born again, so how would you know if you were dead again, one sin, ten sins, missing church 3 weeks in a row?
The scriptures tells us Christ is in us, so what is His criteria for leaving us?
Even when we are born again we still must deal with a sinful nature but Christ is our Mediator, when we are saved we belong to Him, He promised He would not leave us or forsake us. I did not see any "unless" after this promise.

[Leslie]

Saint Jerome, the translator of the Latin Vulgate and one of the few Church Fathers that could read and write both Hebrew and Greek did not accept the Apocrypha as inspired. He did consider them to be profitable to be read in the churches for edification as they do contain alot of good wisdom. but that no doctrine should be made from them.

He's just one example of some of the fathers who did not accept it. Luther was not the first, sir.

Also, I disagree with alot of Luther's theology, but I do appreciate what he did.

And disciple, just a point for you to consider. Those are all very good and well scriptures, but what do you do with this verse?

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Abide in Me and I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I Am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." - John 15:1-6 NASB

Jesus is speaking directly to His disciples who are already “in Him”. They are “clean” [pruned]. Their present status is not in question. They are branches attached to the true vine [verse 5]. It is very important to understand that Jesus is speaking to saved individuals. They have life because they are attached to the source of life. Jesus is not talking about how one comes to be in Him [get saved]. He is speaking of the importance of abiding in Him. Young’s Literal Translation renders “abide” as “remain”. It can also be understood as “continue”. The branches in the true vine must remain in Him in order to continue to enjoy the life that flows from Him. No one can have life outside of Christ. The believer remains in Christ through faith and will continue to produce the fruits of faith and life for as long a he or she remains in Christ. When a branch ceases to remain (through faith), as indicated by fruitlessness, it is cut off. Here is a vivid and concise picture of the nature of apostasy. The apostate is not someone who was never in the vine, but someone who did not remain in the vine. Only true believers can be said to have genuinely been in the vine. No unbeliever can be said to be “in Christ”.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Leslie

And disciple, just a point for you to consider. Those are all very good and well scriptures, but what do you do with this verse?

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Abide in Me and I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I Am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." - John 15:1-6 NASB

Jesus is speaking directly to His disciples who are already “in Him”. They are “clean” [pruned]. Their present status is not in question. They are branches attached to the true vine [verse 5]. It is very important to understand that Jesus is speaking to saved individuals. They have life because they are attached to the source of life. Jesus is not talking about how one comes to be in Him [get saved]. He is speaking of the importance of abiding in Him. Young’s Literal Translation renders “abide” as “remain”. It can also be understood as “continue”. The branches in the true vine must remain in Him in order to continue to enjoy the life that flows from Him. No one can have life outside of Christ. The believer remains in Christ through faith and will continue to produce the fruits of faith and life for as long a he or she remains in Christ. When a branch ceases to remain (through faith), as indicated by fruitlessness, it is cut off. Here is a vivid and concise picture of the nature of apostasy. The apostate is not someone who was never in the vine, but someone who did not remain in the vine. Only true believers can be said to have genuinely been in the vine. No unbeliever can be said to be “in Christ”.

Hi Leslie,
The salvation of the sinner is not the subject here but the path of the disciple. Of course we are all responsable to obey Christ and remain in Him, but this can only be done with grace. The following is taken from a commentary by Vernon MaGee and I agree with this interpretation.

"Everyone He is speaking to here is a believer. The prophets spoke of the nation Israel as the vine—Psalm 80:8-9; Isaiah 5:1-7; Jeremiah 2:21; Hosea 10:1. It was a degenerate vine, and Jesus now presents Himself as the genuine vine. Salvation is not by being in Isreael (or being in a church), but being in Christ. A grapevine will never break at the place where the branch goes into the vine. "Abide" (verse 4) means constant communion with Christ—isn't that what a branch is doing in the vine? "Fruit" (verse 5) is produced by the Holy Spirit in such a life (Galatians 5:22-23). The fruit of soul-winning is a by-product. The fire in verse 6 is not hell, but being taken away from the place of fruitbearing (cf. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15)."

[Trinity]

Originally Posted by Leslie

Saint Jerome, the translator of the Latin Vulgate and one of the few Church Fathers that could read and write both Hebrew and Greek did not accept the Apocrypha as inspired. He did consider them to be profitable to be read in the churches for edification as they do contain alot of good wisdom. but that no doctrine should be made from them.

He's just one example of some of the fathers who did not accept it.

Hello Leslie,

Perhaps you do not know this, but books that we have presently in our New Testament were also contested by the early Church. In the Eastern side and also in the Western side of the Roman Empire, churches had many distinctive canons. There was much debate about other books including Hebrews, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Revelation. Some churches accepted the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas as Scripture. Also, the Septuangint was the version adopted by the Apostles and this version had included the Deuterocanonical books. Almost all the biblical quotes or references in the New Testament are from the Septuangint.

Furthermore, the Essenes people or the people from the Qumran community, also had those books in their libraries. In brief, those books were present in the Church until the arrival of Luther.

You are correct when you said that St. Jerome (also, Gregory of Nazianzus and Epiphanius) favored the list of the Hebrew Bible and that he did not accept all the Deuterocanonical books, as canonical. However, Ambrose and Augustine disagreed with him. Anyway, the canon was not decided according to the opinion of one man but with councils. That was the same thing with the dogma of the Trinity.

Keep also in mind that the Jews had no canon in Jesus time. Jews are not a authority for the Christians to decide which book is canonical. Yes they rejected the Deuterocanonical books at the end of the first century of the christian era, but they also rejected the Gospels and the Pauline Epistles.

In conclusion, Jerome was not the only polyglot and some Fathers of the Church also quoted the Deuterocanonical books (ex. Polycarp of Smyrna,Clement of Rome, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Cyprian of Carthage, Augustine, etc). Ultimately, Jerome recognized that the Church alone had the authority to determine the canon.

"We are obliged to yield many things to the papists that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it."

Martin Luther
Commentary on St. John
Chapter 16th

Trinity

[tealblue]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi TB,
As Christians we need to consider what Jesus said as opposed to what we tend to believe or feel is true based on religious teaching or human logic.



Here is what Jesus said in John 3:3,"Jesus answered and said to him, “Most ***uredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Are you disagreeing with this?

How many decisions does one need to make to be saved? Jesus said in John 5:24 "Most ***uredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has p***ed from death into life."
So what is an x christian, some one who has p***ed from death to life and has p***ed back from life to death? Jesus said we must be born again so it is apparent that some people are born again, so how would you know if you were dead again, one sin, ten sins, missing church 3 weeks in a row?
The scriptures tells us Christ is in us, so what is His criteria for leaving us?
Even when we are born again we still must deal with a sinful nature but Christ is our Mediator, when we are saved we belong to Him, He promised He would not leave us or forsake us. I did not see any "unless" after this promise.

I don't disagree that one must be born again only what being born again is. No early church father believed being born again was anything but water baptism. The whole chapter is about water baptism nothing else.

[alanmolstad]

one of the marks that you are in a CULT is that they got to keep you guessing if you are saved or not?

Thats the hook the CULTs put into you and keeps you close and only looking to the CULT for your salvation....even if you dont think you are at the time.

Lets take a look at how this is true for members of the JW cult.
The average JW at your door has no lasting feeling that they are eternally saved.
What they feel is that if they work hard for the Watchtower that this will count toward their salvation.
But this also means that if they don't work then they have lost their one chance for salvation.

This is the hook the Watchtower Org has over it's members.
First it teaches that you cant ever be 100% sure you are always saved.
Then next they tell you that you can only learn the truth from the Watchtower org.

Thus the JW at your door is there because they simply have no real ***urance of their own salvation and so they are attempting to earn salvation "points" as it were, by doing door-to-door witnessing to spread the hold of the Watchtower to more people.

This same way of getting hooks into people under their control is common to all the CULTS....

But its not the way we are to believe, nor act...

I am a Christian.
Im saved by Grace though faith.
Im not kept saved by works.

[alanmolstad]

Christians do not earn their salvation via works, nor do we maintain our salvation via works.

If it was all up to me to keep myself saved I might as well give up right now....

[alanmolstad]

I say again...

one of the marks that you are in a CULT is that they got to keep you guessing if you are saved or not?

Thats the hook the CULTs put into you and keeps you close and only looking to the CULT for your salvation....even if you dont think you are at the time.

Lets take a look at how this is true for members of the JW cult.
The average JW at your door has no lasting feeling that they are eternally saved.
What they feel is that if they work hard for the Watchtower that this will count toward their salvation.
But this also means that if they don't work then they have lost their one chance for salvation.

This is the hook the Watchtower Org has over it's members.
First it teaches that you cant ever be 100% sure you are always saved.
Then next they tell you that you can only learn the truth from the Watchtower org.

Thus the JW at your door is there because they simply have no real ***urance of their own salvation and so they are attempting to earn salvation "points" as it were, by doing door-to-door witnessing to spread the hold of the Watchtower to more people.

This same way of getting hooks into people under their control is common to all the CULTS....

But its not the way we are to believe, nor act...

I am a Christian.
Im saved by Grace though faith.
Im not kept saved by works.



Many CULTS use Hebrews 6 to teach that a person can lose their salvation...
Here is what Walter martin says about this topic