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  1. #1
    tealblue
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    Default Are you ***ured of salvation?

    Saint Paul didn't think so.

    1 cor 4:4 I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord.
    5
    Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.

    1 cor 9:27 No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified

    Not only did paul not think he was ***ured of salvation but he also thought that he could lose it.

    Rom 11:22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

    Paul also warn us of us too being cut off

    Heb 10:26 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins
    27
    but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

    Again we are warned that deliberate sin results in us being cut off.

    He who endure till the end will be saved Matt 24

    I know there is alot of scripture that says no one will take us out of Gods hands. I would say to that aslong as we remain in the eternal sonship of christ thats true but not if we turn away in sin.

  2. #2
    jean
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    Quote Originally Posted by tealblue View Post
    Saint Paul didn't think so.

    1 cor 4:4 I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord.
    5
    Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.

    1 cor 9:27 No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified

    Not only did paul not think he was ***ured of salvation but he also thought that he could lose it.

    Rom 11:22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

    Paul also warn us of us too being cut off

    Heb 10:26 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins
    27
    but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

    Again we are warned that deliberate sin results in us being cut off.

    He who endure till the end will be saved Matt 24

    I know there is alot of scripture that says no one will take us out of Gods hands. I would say to that aslong as we remain in the eternal sonship of christ thats true but not if we turn away in sin.
    teal,
    Heb.10:26 is a scripture that we should all pay close attention to. On the positive side however, God is loving and long suffering with sinners who repent.
    ***us 2:11 reads ""for the grace of God that brings salvation has appeaed to all men."
    Heb.1:14 "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"
    1Pet.1:5 "who through faith are shieled by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice."
    2Pet.3:15 :Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him."

    God bless,
    jean

  3. #3
    tealblue
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    I just think the once saved always saved additude is dangerous. And unbiblical to say the least. Even to say it was to be totally presumptious about it.

  4. #4
    jean
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    Quote Originally Posted by tealblue View Post
    I just think the once saved always saved additude is dangerous. And unbiblical to say the least. Even to say it was to be totally presumptious about it.
    teal,
    I agree. I don't believe in 'once saved, always saved.'
    We are being sanctified daily. We are to continue to grow and strive for holiness.The Holy Spirit is our constant guide.

    God bless,
    jean
    Last edited by jean; 10-20-2008 at 09:30 PM.

  5. #5
    Bob Carabbio
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    It's intrinsic -

    We are saved by our FAITH in the shed blood of Jesus - the provision of God for the remission of our sin.

    IF we have FAITH - (not "belief", "hope", or "doctrinal ***urance" which can give NO security) - then we also possess the ESTABLISHED REALITY of our salvation, - the "substance of it", in fact!!! and being in possession of the Substance and the Evidence of our salvation, then we can confidently claim that we HAVE salvation.

    Case closed.

    If we don't HAVE "faith" in our Savior (which is the ONLY basis for claiming salvation to begin with) - then on what grounds would we have any reason to think we're saved at all????

    I think Paul knew of the "issues" that could effect His state of salvation, and pointed 'em out for us. BUT that he had TOTAL CONFIDENCE in the REALITY of his own salvation is beyond question. It's a FALSE teaching (and a horrendously DANGEROUS one) that we have to "wonder" whether we "made the cut" or not. "Faith" isn't even on the radar with that mindset!!!!
    Last edited by Bob Carabbio; 10-11-2008 at 04:25 PM.

  6. #6
    Leslie
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    For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire." - 2 Peter 2:20-22 - ESV


    I think this Scripture shows that a person can lose his faith and backslide back into his sins and become filfthy once again. I don't believe that a person in this state will go to heaven because,

    "Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." - Hebrews 12:14 - ESV


    "But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life." - Revelation 21:27 - ESV

    "The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'" - Revelation 3:5-6

    In short, I don't think one can sin and go to heaven. I think if you sin you need to repent over it or you could be in danger of losing your soul. I don't believe in "once saved, always saved" because I've known too many so-called christians who abused that and did all sorts of ungodly things and said that they were still saved. It's always left a bad taste in my mouth.

  7. #7
    Bob Carabbio
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    Agreed - OSAS isn't a Biblical teaching.

    Equally unBiblical is the old "holiness" - "one sin and you're OUT" teaching.

  8. #8
    Leslie
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    So do you believe in the old baptist saying "once saved, always saved"?

    Does that mean that I could go out and sin, not repent over them, get hit by a car and then die and go to heaven?

  9. #9
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    So do you believe in the old baptist saying "once saved, always saved"?

    Does that mean that I could go out and sin, not repent over them, get hit by a car and then die and go to heaven?
    Hi Leslie,
    I think when people hear the phrase "once saved, always saved", especially people who are in religious systems that tend to lean towards legalisim, they
    get the idea that some Christians believe that once they are born again they can sin anytime they want with no consequences. Of course that is not true. The idea of being always saved in my point of view comes from the truth of the scriptures. Jesus died for all my sin, past, present and future. When I accept the truth of the Gospel, admit my sin, turn from it and trust Him as Savior I am saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Now the problem is what if I sin? Does the indwelling Holy Spirit leave each time I sin? No I have a Mediator who interceedes for me, when I confess my sin He is faithful and just to forgive my sin and cleanse me of all unrightousness. Faithful and just means to me that if I sin and then get hit with a car before I confess, yes I will go to heaven. God looks at a man's heart, his intent and what he places his trust in, not a specific formula. Of course when we sin we are to admit it and repent but that is not what saves us it is grace that saves and keeps one saved.

  10. #10
    Leslie
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hi Leslie,
    I think when people hear the phrase "once saved, always saved", especially people who are in religious systems that tend to lean towards legalisim, they
    get the idea that some Christians believe that once they are born again they can sin anytime they want with no consequences. Of course that is not true. The idea of being always saved in my point of view comes from the truth of the scriptures. Jesus died for all my sin, past, present and future. When I accept the truth of the Gospel, admit my sin, turn from it and trust Him as Savior I am saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Now the problem is what if I sin? Does the indwelling Holy Spirit leave each time I sin? No I have a Mediator who interceedes for me, when I confess my sin He is faithful and just to forgive my sin and cleanse me of all unrightousness. Faithful and just means to me that if I sin and then get hit with a car before I confess, yes I will go to heaven. God looks at a man's heart, his intent and what he places his trust in, not a specific formula. Of course when we sin we are to admit it and repent but that is not what saves us it is grace that saves and keeps one saved.
    So I can die in the very act of adultery, and I'll still go to heaven?

  11. #11
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    So I can die in the very act of adultery, and I'll still go to heaven?

    Hello again Leslie,
    Jesus said, "if you love me you will keep my commandments", and I believe this to be true but it is not keeping the commandments or the the confessing of the transgressions which imparts salvation, it is God's grace and faith in Jesus Christ. If we are followers of Jesus Christ our life styles will not be the same as those who reject Him, but Christians can also stumble, become deceived and act and react in a sinful manner. Your question was about adultry, what about if you lie in a stressful situation, fight with your neighbor, curse at a driver who cuts you off, look with lust at someone or goof off at work for 20 minutes while your being paid to work(stealing) and you die before you confess any of these things? What person can ever be sure they have confessed every sin they have ever committed? My belief is that Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners and His offer of eternal life had no hidden clauses or tricky fine print. To answer you question, if you are a Christian and you stumble wheather it is adultry or dishonoring your parents and die before confessing I believe you will still have eternal life because Jesus paid the debt for your sin. If you claim to be a Christian and your plan is to lead a sinful life because you believe you have a p*** to sin, then you are in trouble. God sees the heart, and knows who are His own. Is the criteria for eternal life that you must confess every sin before death?

  12. #12
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Your question was about adultry, what about if you lie in a stressful situation, fight with your neighbor, curse at a driver who cuts you off, look with lust at someone or goof off at work for 20 minutes while your being paid to work(stealing) and you die before you confess any of these things? What person can ever be sure they have confessed every sin they have ever committed?
    This is why we the Catholics and the Jews, we believe into a form of purgatory.

    Trinity

  13. #13
    Leslie
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hello again Leslie,
    Jesus said, "if you love me you will keep my commandments", and I believe this to be true but it is not keeping the commandments or the the confessing of the transgressions which imparts salvation, it is God's grace and faith in Jesus Christ. If we are followers of Jesus Christ our life styles will not be the same as those who reject Him, but Christians can also stumble, become deceived and act and react in a sinful manner. Your question was about adultry, what about if you lie in a stressful situation, fight with your neighbor, curse at a driver who cuts you off, look with lust at someone or goof off at work for 20 minutes while your being paid to work(stealing) and you die before you confess any of these things? What person can ever be sure they have confessed every sin they have ever committed? My belief is that Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners and His offer of eternal life had no hidden clauses or tricky fine print. To answer you question, if you are a Christian and you stumble wheather it is adultry or dishonoring your parents and die before confessing I believe you will still have eternal life because Jesus paid the debt for your sin. If you claim to be a Christian and your plan is to lead a sinful life because you believe you have a p*** to sin, then you are in trouble. God sees the heart, and knows who are His own. Is the criteria for eternal life that you must confess every sin before death?
    Maybe I've just had bad experiences with people who believed in Eternal Security and used it as an excuse to sin. I don't know, but I still don't believe you can live in sin and go to heaven, and I still believe that a person can fall from grace by returning to sin and not repenting of it.

  14. #14
    tealblue
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    Maybe I've just had bad experiences with people who believed in Eternal Security and used it as an excuse to sin. I don't know, but I still don't believe you can live in sin and go to heaven, and I still believe that a person can fall from grace by returning to sin and not repenting of it.
    This brings up another question. If somebody makes a one time profession of faith and you are supposely born again. Why does the born agian effect only take for some people. Some leave the faith and people will say well they were never saved in the first place. At the time the person was honest in their profession but for some reason it didn't work.

  15. #15
    Leslie
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    Quote Originally Posted by tealblue View Post
    This brings up another question. If somebody makes a one time profession of faith and you are supposely born again. Why does the born agian effect only take for some people. Some leave the faith and people will say well they were never saved in the first place. At the time the person was honest in their profession but for some reason it didn't work.
    Well honestly, I've always found that to be a cop out. Just to tell a little bit about myself. I got saved around 10 or 11 after I heard a fiery sermon from a visiting preacher. His sermon was about people reaching a corner that they might not can ever return from. His point was that you should accept Christ NOW before its too late and that you shouldn't take for granted the opportunity to be saved. I DID repent of my sins, at my house with my mother praying with me. I didn't want to go to hell, I wanted jesus to save me from that aweful fate. For a few years I was a good Christian, I read my little Bible, went to church, prayed etc. When I got into my teenage years I did less of that and got cold in my faith. I stopped reading my Bible as much, didn't pray as often and only went to church on sunday mornings. And sadly, I did things that I know would have sent me to hell for sure.

    When I hit 18-19 I returned to Christ, this time I sought the Lord more seriously and got Sanctified, and later, in my room all by myself praying I recieved the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

    So I fully believe that I backslide and if I would have died in that state I would have went to hell and deserved it. I just thank the Lord that he had mercy on me and allowed me to come back to him. Just saying "well you were never truly saved the first time" doesn't cut it for me, I know what I recieved the first time. I know that I was saved the first time.

  16. #16
    Trinity
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    "Human salvation demands the divine disclosure of truths surp***ing reason."---Saint Thomas Aquinas
    We are saved by faith, however, God has many patterns to guide someone to salvation. The truth about ourselves is a truth that is surp***ing our reason. There are many reasonable men that do not know much about themselves. Spiritual blindness is the first truth disclosed by God, and this is just the beginning. There is more truths that are waiting for us after the disclosure of this first truth. Some of those truths can be painful, others are a real bliss.

    Salvation is something that is more complicated than a simple prayer of repentance during an evangelical rally. This is more than words.

    Also, keep in mind that God is patient with the humankind in the same way he is patient with each of us. Do not always expect to be brutalized by him. Anyway, during our spiritual pilgrimage during this present life. By saying this, I do not want to say that life is not testing us. Bad things happen to good people.

    2Timothy 2:13 If we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.

    1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Salvation is an 'amazing race'. Run the race and do not resign or be disqualified. At the end, at the last pit stop, there will be more than a million dollars.

    Jesus has never said that salvation is something that is easy. Sometimes that would request great sacrifices. Obedience and the pursue of new values.

    There is many traps that we should avoid. Salvation can be compared at the equilibrium in a chess game. This is something we should always maintain if we do not want to fall in a trap. Play your life wisely.

    Trinity
    Last edited by Trinity; 10-16-2008 at 01:44 PM.

  17. #17
    Leslie
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    I don't think that salvation is too terribly complicated personally. Repent of your sins and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior, that is what the Scripture says. Living a holy and righteous life afterward is just you obeying God. Naturally we cannot do it with our own strength, but as Phillipians 4:13 says, "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

  18. #18
    tealblue
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    Well honestly, I've always found that to be a cop out. Just to tell a little bit about myself. I got saved around 10 or 11 after I heard a fiery sermon from a visiting preacher. His sermon was about people reaching a corner that they might not can ever return from. His point was that you should accept Christ NOW before its too late and that you shouldn't take for granted the opportunity to be saved. I DID repent of my sins, at my house with my mother praying with me. I didn't want to go to hell, I wanted jesus to save me from that aweful fate. For a few years I was a good Christian, I read my little Bible, went to church, prayed etc. When I got into my teenage years I did less of that and got cold in my faith. I stopped reading my Bible as much, didn't pray as often and only went to church on sunday mornings. And sadly, I did things that I know would have sent me to hell for sure.

    When I hit 18-19 I returned to Christ, this time I sought the Lord more seriously and got Sanctified, and later, in my room all by myself praying I recieved the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

    So I fully believe that I backslide and if I would have died in that state I would have went to hell and deserved it. I just thank the Lord that he had mercy on me and allowed me to come back to him. Just saying "well you were never truly saved the first time" doesn't cut it for me, I know what I recieved the first time. I know that I was saved the first time.

    If you say you were saved at 10 then backslid where you say you were for sure hell bound then you wern't really saved at 10. If you were truly "saved" then you are saved. Thats why the whole idea of being saved at some point in ones life makes no sense because until the end and one is in the grace of God then nothing is certain.

  19. #19
    Leslie
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    Quote Originally Posted by tealblue View Post
    If you say you were saved at 10 then backslid where you say you were for sure hell bound then you wern't really saved at 10. If you were truly "saved" then you are saved. Thats why the whole idea of being saved at some point in ones life makes no sense because until the end and one is in the grace of God then nothing is certain.
    By saved I mean that my sins had been forgiven and I was a Christian.

  20. #20
    tealblue
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    By saved I mean that my sins had been forgiven and I was a Christian.
    I understand what you are saying. As a catholic I don't believe in the born again concept. I believe in conversion but not a one time decision making one saved. I used to believe in this concept and for me it was too easy too just say God is working in me and I hope I will be sactified one day. I know way too many x christians who were once on fire for God and no more.

  21. #21
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Hi TB,
    As Christians we need to consider what Jesus said as opposed to what we tend to believe or feel is true based on religious teaching or human logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by tealblue View Post
    I understand what you are saying. As a catholic I don't believe in the born again concept.
    I believe in conversion but not a one time decision making one saved. I used to believe in this concept and for me it was too easy too just say God is working in me and I hope I will be sactified one day. I know way too many x christians who were once on fire for God and no more.
    Here is what Jesus said in John 3:3,"Jesus answered and said to him, “Most ***uredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Are you disagreeing with this?

    How many decisions does one need to make to be saved? Jesus said in John 5:24 "Most ***uredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has p***ed from death into life."
    So what is an x christian, some one who has p***ed from death to life and has p***ed back from life to death? Jesus said we must be born again so it is apparent that some people are born again, so how would you know if you were dead again, one sin, ten sins, missing church 3 weeks in a row?
    The scriptures tells us Christ is in us, so what is His criteria for leaving us?
    Even when we are born again we still must deal with a sinful nature but Christ is our Mediator, when we are saved we belong to Him, He promised He would not leave us or forsake us. I did not see any "unless" after this promise.

  22. #22
    Leslie
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    Saint Jerome, the translator of the Latin Vulgate and one of the few Church Fathers that could read and write both Hebrew and Greek did not accept the Apocrypha as inspired. He did consider them to be profitable to be read in the churches for edification as they do contain alot of good wisdom. but that no doctrine should be made from them.

    He's just one example of some of the fathers who did not accept it. Luther was not the first, sir.

    Also, I disagree with alot of Luther's theology, but I do appreciate what he did.

    And disciple, just a point for you to consider. Those are all very good and well scriptures, but what do you do with this verse?

    "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Abide in Me and I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I Am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." - John 15:1-6 NASB

    Jesus is speaking directly to His disciples who are already “in Him”. They are “clean” [pruned]. Their present status is not in question. They are branches attached to the true vine [verse 5]. It is very important to understand that Jesus is speaking to saved individuals. They have life because they are attached to the source of life. Jesus is not talking about how one comes to be in Him [get saved]. He is speaking of the importance of abiding in Him. Young’s Literal Translation renders “abide” as “remain”. It can also be understood as “continue”. The branches in the true vine must remain in Him in order to continue to enjoy the life that flows from Him. No one can have life outside of Christ. The believer remains in Christ through faith and will continue to produce the fruits of faith and life for as long a he or she remains in Christ. When a branch ceases to remain (through faith), as indicated by fruitlessness, it is cut off. Here is a vivid and concise picture of the nature of apostasy. The apostate is not someone who was never in the vine, but someone who did not remain in the vine. Only true believers can be said to have genuinely been in the vine. No unbeliever can be said to be “in Christ”.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post

    And disciple, just a point for you to consider. Those are all very good and well scriptures, but what do you do with this verse?

    "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Abide in Me and I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I Am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." - John 15:1-6 NASB

    Jesus is speaking directly to His disciples who are already “in Him”. They are “clean” [pruned]. Their present status is not in question. They are branches attached to the true vine [verse 5]. It is very important to understand that Jesus is speaking to saved individuals. They have life because they are attached to the source of life. Jesus is not talking about how one comes to be in Him [get saved]. He is speaking of the importance of abiding in Him. Young’s Literal Translation renders “abide” as “remain”. It can also be understood as “continue”. The branches in the true vine must remain in Him in order to continue to enjoy the life that flows from Him. No one can have life outside of Christ. The believer remains in Christ through faith and will continue to produce the fruits of faith and life for as long a he or she remains in Christ. When a branch ceases to remain (through faith), as indicated by fruitlessness, it is cut off. Here is a vivid and concise picture of the nature of apostasy. The apostate is not someone who was never in the vine, but someone who did not remain in the vine. Only true believers can be said to have genuinely been in the vine. No unbeliever can be said to be “in Christ”.
    Hi Leslie,
    The salvation of the sinner is not the subject here but the path of the disciple. Of course we are all responsable to obey Christ and remain in Him, but this can only be done with grace. The following is taken from a commentary by Vernon MaGee and I agree with this interpretation.

    "Everyone He is speaking to here is a believer. The prophets spoke of the nation Israel as the vine—Psalm 80:8-9; Isaiah 5:1-7; Jeremiah 2:21; Hosea 10:1. It was a degenerate vine, and Jesus now presents Himself as the genuine vine. Salvation is not by being in Isreael (or being in a church), but being in Christ. A grapevine will never break at the place where the branch goes into the vine. "Abide" (verse 4) means constant communion with Christ—isn't that what a branch is doing in the vine? "Fruit" (verse 5) is produced by the Holy Spirit in such a life (Galatians 5:22-23). The fruit of soul-winning is a by-product. The fire in verse 6 is not hell, but being taken away from the place of fruitbearing (cf. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15)."

  24. #24
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
    Saint Jerome, the translator of the Latin Vulgate and one of the few Church Fathers that could read and write both Hebrew and Greek did not accept the Apocrypha as inspired. He did consider them to be profitable to be read in the churches for edification as they do contain alot of good wisdom. but that no doctrine should be made from them.

    He's just one example of some of the fathers who did not accept it.
    Hello Leslie,

    Perhaps you do not know this, but books that we have presently in our New Testament were also contested by the early Church. In the Eastern side and also in the Western side of the Roman Empire, churches had many distinctive canons. There was much debate about other books including Hebrews, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Revelation. Some churches accepted the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas as Scripture. Also, the Septuangint was the version adopted by the Apostles and this version had included the Deuterocanonical books. Almost all the biblical quotes or references in the New Testament are from the Septuangint.

    Furthermore, the Essenes people or the people from the Qumran community, also had those books in their libraries. In brief, those books were present in the Church until the arrival of Luther.

    You are correct when you said that St. Jerome (also, Gregory of Nazianzus and Epiphanius) favored the list of the Hebrew Bible and that he did not accept all the Deuterocanonical books, as canonical. However, Ambrose and Augustine disagreed with him. Anyway, the canon was not decided according to the opinion of one man but with councils. That was the same thing with the dogma of the Trinity.

    Keep also in mind that the Jews had no canon in Jesus time. Jews are not a authority for the Christians to decide which book is canonical. Yes they rejected the Deuterocanonical books at the end of the first century of the christian era, but they also rejected the Gospels and the Pauline Epistles.

    In conclusion, Jerome was not the only polyglot and some Fathers of the Church also quoted the Deuterocanonical books (ex. Polycarp of Smyrna,Clement of Rome, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Cyprian of Carthage, Augustine, etc). Ultimately, Jerome recognized that the Church alone had the authority to determine the canon.

    "We are obliged to yield many things to the papists that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it."

    Martin Luther
    Commentary on St. John
    Chapter 16th
    Trinity
    Last edited by Trinity; 10-21-2008 at 12:39 PM.

  25. #25
    tealblue
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hi TB,
    As Christians we need to consider what Jesus said as opposed to what we tend to believe or feel is true based on religious teaching or human logic.



    Here is what Jesus said in John 3:3,"Jesus answered and said to him, “Most ***uredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Are you disagreeing with this?

    How many decisions does one need to make to be saved? Jesus said in John 5:24 "Most ***uredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has p***ed from death into life."
    So what is an x christian, some one who has p***ed from death to life and has p***ed back from life to death? Jesus said we must be born again so it is apparent that some people are born again, so how would you know if you were dead again, one sin, ten sins, missing church 3 weeks in a row?
    The scriptures tells us Christ is in us, so what is His criteria for leaving us?
    Even when we are born again we still must deal with a sinful nature but Christ is our Mediator, when we are saved we belong to Him, He promised He would not leave us or forsake us. I did not see any "unless" after this promise.
    I don't disagree that one must be born again only what being born again is. No early church father believed being born again was anything but water baptism. The whole chapter is about water baptism nothing else.

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