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Thread: Free Will

  1. #1
    Billyray
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    Default Free Will

    Free will has been tossed around a lot recently on this board. The problem is that unless a person gives the definition of how he is using this word it can cause a lot of confusion.

    One person may use the term "free will" to simply mean making willing choices that the person wants to make.

    Another person may use the term "free will" to mean the ability to make any choice at any time independent of a person's nature and independent of God's will.

    Perhaps posters could give us some definitions of how they are using this term and then we could proceed to discuss this issue.

  2. #2
    alanmolstad
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    you had a nice dictionary you were quoting the other day.......quote it again now...

  3. #3
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    you had a nice dictionary you were quoting the other day.......quote it again now...
    Merriam Webster Dictionary

    FREE WILL
    1. voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
    2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

  4. #4
    Billyray
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    What about sin nature. Do you think that this limits complete "free will"?

  5. #5
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    What about sin nature. Do you think that this limits complete "free will"?
    we hear many voices whispering im sure....but in the end we are always free to make up our own minds according to how we see things...

    free will means that we are not under the control of others...things feelings or people

    but free will does not mean "error free"

  6. #6
    alanmolstad
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    god could not draw us to christ unless we had free will...

    free will is what god seeks to attract

  7. #7
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Merriam Webster Dictionary

    FREE WILL
    1. voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
    2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
    the link?...........

  8. #8
    alanmolstad
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    please post the link were i can read this for myself

  9. #9
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    the link?...........
    Here is the link to Merriam Webster.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com

    If you want to use this definition then that is fine. But the point I am trying to make is that without known how you are using this word I have no idea what you mean when you say "free will". And the same would go for you if I use that term. For example I could say a Calvinist believes that a person who is not elect has the "free will" to choose Christ or reject HIM--but you would object in how I am using this term. Feel free to give me your own definition of how you are using this term if you like.
    Last edited by Billyray; 05-07-2014 at 01:20 AM. Reason: added link

  10. #10
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    What about sin nature. Do you think that this limits complete "free will"?
    I think it does, to some degree, but not quite to the extent that most Calvinists believe...."dead in sin"...unable to choose God, without His intervention.

    I do think our nature interferes with keeping God's commandments, which is why we needed a Savior.

    I don't consider God's "drawing" a Divine intervention, exactly. I see it as more of an enticement...but not one that we cannot reject, if we choose.

  11. #11
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I do think our nature interferes with keeping God's commandments, which is why we needed a Savior.
    I certainly agree with you on this one Libby. In fact if a person had complete free will then he should be able to choose to obey all of the commandments and live a perfect life--just like Christ. But not a single person has the ability to do so. And this brings us back where we were discussing Arminian verse Calvinism and how I was trying to show that each side could make a claim that a person didn't have a real choice therefore it wasn't fair. (But for the record before a poster such as JohnT misunderstands my position--I believe that each one of us make choices are what we desire and we will be held responsible for those choices.

    Alan was so hot on this topic on the other thread I expected a more vigorous response from him but thus far I haven't seen it yet. I am still waiting for him to settle on a definition so I can get a better grasp on what he really believes. Hopefully it will be forthcoming.

  12. #12
    Libby
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    I think Alan was okay with your dictionary definition...but, I'll let him clear that up for himself.

    I know Calvinists don't believe we have the kind of "free will" described in your dictionary definition.

    And this brings us back where we were discussing Arminian verse Calvinism and how I was trying to show that each side could make a claim that a person didn't have a real choice therefore it wasn't fair.
    Yeah, this one caught me a little off guard. It's probably wrong to say that God does not have expectations that we cannot meet. His expectation is perfection and we sure as heck cannot meet that. We actually do need God's "grace" every step of the way.

  13. #13
    Libby
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    Link to the Merriam Webster definition:

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free%20will

  14. #14
    Libby
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    Reformed definition of "free will".

    http://www.theopedia.com/Free_will

    (excerpt from the link)

    Probably the most common definition of free will is the "ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition,"^[1]^ and specifically that these "free will" choices are not ultimately predestined by God.

    According to the Bible, however, the choices of man are not only ultimately determined by God, but morally determined by one's nature. Man is indeed a free moral agent and freely makes choices, but in his natural state he necessarily acts in accordance with his fallen nature. Man willingly makes choices that flow from the heart, and sin is also always attributed to the desires of the heart (James 1:13-15). When a person turns to Christ, he does so not because of his own "free will", but because God has supernaturally enabled and moved him to do so through regeneration. God never coerces man's will, rather God gives the ability to believe through the work of the Holy Spirit.

  15. #15
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I know Calvinists don't believe we have the kind of "free will" described in your dictionary definition.
    Do you think that Arminians should hold the free will position--as defined by the dictionary definition--since they don't have the ability to keep all of the commandments and they don't have the ability to come to Christ on their own?


    Yeah, this one caught me a little off guard. It's probably wrong to say that God does not have expectations that we cannot meet. His expectation is perfection and we sure as heck cannot meet that. We actually do need God's "grace" every step of the way.[/QUOTE]

  16. #16
    Libby
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    Do you think that Arminians should hold the free will position--as defined by the dictionary definition--since they don't have the ability to keep all of the commandments and they don't have the ability to come to Christ on their own?
    What I have read of their position, on free will, they would not hold to the Webster definition. They would disagree with Calvinists that regeneration is necessary, in order to come to Christ, but they do believe God's grace is a necessity, to help overcome the sin nature.

  17. #17
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    What I have read of their position, on free will, they would not hold to the Webster definition.
    If that is the case then you can see why using the term "free will" means something different for different people and until we can agree on a definition--even just for this thread--we don't really have a good understanding of what each person means when they use the word "free will".

    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    They would disagree with Calvinists that regeneration is necessary, in order to come to Christ, but they do believe God's grace is a necessity, to help overcome the sin nature.
    So Arminians would agree that they do not have the ability to come to Christ on their own. Is that a fair ***essment?

  18. #18
    Libby
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    Arminian definition of free will:

    Free will is unable to begin or to perfect any true and spiritual good, without grace.... This grace [proevenit] goes before, accompanies, and follows; it excites, ***ists, operates that we will, and co operates lest we will in vain.[10]

    Prevenient grace is divine grace which precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin, prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_wi...gy#Arminianism

  19. #19
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    If that is the case then you can see why using the term "free will" means something different for different people and until we can agree on a definition--even just for this thread--we don't really have a good understanding of what each person means when they use the word "free will".
    Yes, I agree, definitions are important, otherwise, we are not understanding where the person we're talking with is coming from.

    So Arminians would agree that they do not have the ability to come to Christ on their own. Is that a fair ***essment?
    It's probably fair to say that, yes. But, they do believe we have much more "ability", than Calvinists believe.

    An Arminian once described it to me as a "give and take" process. I think I described that to you, in another post.

  20. #20
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Merriam Webster Dictionary

    FREE WILL
    1. voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
    2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
    where is this link then to a nonreligious site?

  21. #21
    alanmolstad
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    i would like a link to a nonreligious site.....something that jusy lays out the term without slanted judgements.....

  22. #22
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    So even by Arminian definition a person is unable to come to Christ on their own. This sounds a lot like the Calvinist belief that man are unable to come to Christ on their own. And it sounds a lot like John 6.

  23. #23
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I certainly agree with you on this one Libby. In fact if a person had complete free will then he should be able to choose to obey all of the commandments and live a perfect life--just like Christ. But not a single person has the ability to do so. And this brings us back where we were discussing Arminian verse Calvinism and how I was trying to show that each side could make a claim that a person didn't have a real choice therefore it wasn't fair. (But for the record before a poster such as JohnT misunderstands my position--I believe that each one of us make choices are what we desire and we will be held responsible for those choices.

    Alan was so hot on this topic on the other thread I expected a more vigorous response from him but thus far I haven't seen it yet. I am still waiting for him to settle on a definition so I can get a better grasp on what he really believes. Hopefully it will be forthcoming.
    billy.........billy....its 2 in the morning where i live.....i will have all the answers for you.....LATER!


    give me a chance to come home from work..

    when i went to sleep a few hrs ago this topic was not up yet!!!!!!!!!

    im on my phone here in bed ...the wife is not sleeping well........i better turn this off

  24. #24
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    i would like a link to a nonreligious site.....something that jusy lays out the term without slanted judgements.....
    http://www.merriam-webster.com

    Alan perhaps we can get an agreement on how you are using this word so I can better understand what you really mean when you are using this term.

  25. #25
    alanmolstad
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    its 2:30 here......im on my phone.......
    im still in bed.......wife cant sleep and is keeping me awake......

    billy why.........you know billy i have posted so much on this topic already that anyone has a doubt what free will means.....


    free - means not a slave.....not bound to anyone or anything.....to be free

    will - means you thinking mind

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