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Thread: Is the Resurrection Fabricated?

  1. #1
    TruthSeeker
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    Default Is the Resurrection Fabricated?

    The Bible speaks about Jesus miraculous resurrection. But are there any proofs of his resurrection? Witnesses claim that Jesus resurrected, but how legitimate are their claims? Some believe the story of the resurrection has been stretched to the point it is distorted from generation to generation.

    TruthSeeker

  2. #2
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker View Post
    The Bible speaks about Jesus miraculous resurrection. But are there any proofs of his resurrection? Witnesses claim that Jesus resurrected, but how legitimate are their claims? Some believe the story of the resurrection has been stretched to the point it is distorted from generation to generation.
    If a man would have lived a perfect life, without blame, he would have deserved to be resurrected. There is no proof about his resurrection, however, we can say a lot about his character. A higher miracle than the resurrection, is more, on how it could have been possible that this man was so good, so honest, so lovable, so just. He was not a flaws man. I believe that God could not have resisted and he resurrected him.

    I have absolutely no proof about the resurrection, but if I was God, I could not have resisted either. How many men like him do you meet among your relatives, friends and into the society?

    Trinity

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker View Post
    The Bible speaks about Jesus miraculous resurrection. But are there any proofs of his resurrection? Witnesses claim that Jesus resurrected, but how legitimate are their claims? Some believe the story of the resurrection has been stretched to the point it is distorted from generation to generation.

    TruthSeeker
    Greetings TruthSeeker,
    The proof of the resurrection of Jesus Christ is Christianity, changed lives, changed hearts, the fruit of the Spirit and faith. As far as the account of the resurrection being "stretched", there is really nothing to distort, Christ has died, Christ is risen and Christ will come again. What wonderful news this is for all the world except for those who refuse to believe because Jesus Christ will be only their Judge and not their Redeemer and Savior. Faith, faith is the proof.

  4. #4
    Bob Carabbio
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    The resurrection is Completely provable, in fact. IT cons***uted the physical PROOF in the Apostolic period that Jesus WASN'T some lying religious fake - but LITERALLY WAS the Son of God, and after being CURSED when He was murdered by hanging on the tree, He was raised triumphantly from the dead which was proof positive that salvation for the first time in history actually EXISTED.

    And since folks are being saved and changed TODAY even as they were then, AND since the Holy Spirit is abroad in the earth (since the LIVING Jesus sent Him), and since that wouldn't be possible if Jesus had rotted away in some forgotten tomb - His Resurrection is a demonstrable FACT in 2008.

    Simple as that, y'all!!!!!

    He's alive!!!!

  5. #5
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker View Post
    The Bible speaks about Jesus miraculous resurrection. But are there any proofs of his resurrection?
    "Faith is different from proof; the latter is human, the former is a Gift from God. " Blaise Pascal

    Into a human perspective there is no proof yet. People are seeing UFOs each day but we possess not even a sole proof that they exist. There is no proof about the resurrection. If we had a proof, faith will be obsolete.

    Trinity

  6. #6
    johnd
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    It is interesting to note that all the objections overlook the fact that they cannot prove he did not raise bodily from the grave. And they insist we disprove their objection. Prove he did not raise from the dead.

  7. #7
    johnd
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    What can be proved is that Jesus of Nazareth was an historic figure. And this historic figure fulfilled hundreds of prophecies recorded about him hundreds of years before he was born. This authenticates both his office and his claims.

    He claimed he would lay his life down as a ransom for mankind and the he would raise it back up again.

    500 + witnesses saw him alive after his very public crucifixion... many of which were still alive when the Apostle Paul spoke of them and the resurrected Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15:6. To make a spurious claim with witnesses still living would be like someone today claiming JFK was ******inated with a cross bow rather than a gun... it would be disproved and ridiculed. Paul's claims were not. And ancient record keeping in those days was more than adequate to record such an objection if there had been any... especially when one considers the non-Christian historians like Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Josephus, and so on who mention Jesus and the claims of Jesus without an ounce of despute.

    There's your proof using even contemporary extra-biblical sources.

  8. #8
    Kogseeker
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    Not to mention that the apostles, whom actually saw him alive after his death, were willing to die themselves for the gospel. If jesus hadn't resurrected, it would be hard to believe that they would be willing to die for a lie.

  9. #9
    sayso
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kogseeker View Post
    Not to mention that the apostles, whom actually saw him alive after his death, were willing to die themselves for the gospel. If jesus hadn't resurrected, it would be hard to believe that they would be willing to die for a lie.

    To those who know Him, it needs no proof.

    It's like me saying prove to me that my ancestors came to this country. I have studied genealogy but haven't been able to document it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Yet I know they did because I'm here.

    I know that Jesus is alive because He revealed Himself to me, not through my physical eyes, but through spiritual eyes.

  10. #10
    Trinity
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    What can be a proof?

    According to my comprehension this can be something built by the conjecture of some evidences. But, in science we have to be more conclusive. An hypothesis is not a theory. Scientifically, we can not understand or explain the resurrection. To prove the resurrection without doubts, it is necessary to reproduce this phenomenon anytime. This is why we have to have faith. For now this is still an impossibility and without a scientific proof.

    We should not confuse what is a proof in a court with a scientific proof. This is not the same thing. We believe those eyewitnesses are saying the truth. And like a jury we conclude that this was probable.

    Trinity
    Last edited by Trinity; 11-17-2008 at 01:29 PM.

  11. #11
    sayso
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kogseeker View Post
    Not to mention that the apostles, whom actually saw him alive after his death, were willing to die themselves for the gospel. If jesus hadn't resurrected, it would be hard to believe that they would be willing to die for a lie.

    Kogseeker,

    Even today people die for the sake of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those who never saw His life, death, or resurrection with their own eyes are willing to lay down their own lives for the Gospel. If you visit the Voice of the Martyrs website you can read about the persecution of the saints of God that happen daily. They are beaten, imprisoned, and killed, yet we hear little if anything about it on the world news.

  12. #12
    Trinity
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    Hello sayso,

    Quote Originally Posted by sayso View Post
    Kogseeker,

    Even today people die for the sake of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those who never saw His life, death, or resurrection with their own eyes are willing to lay down their own lives for the Gospel. If you visit the Voice of the Martyrs website you can read about the persecution of the saints of God that happen daily. They are beaten, imprisoned, and killed, yet we hear little if anything about it on the world news.
    Yes, christian believers had their lives at stake. However, not only christians were tortured or killed for their faith. Heretics died, believers in other religions (Jews, Muslims, Buddhist monks in Tibet, etc), some died and was tortured for their political opinions, others for more justice or for the peace (all the spies who were tortured and killed by the Gestapo). In brief, this is not exclusive to the christianity. Some people can object and say that this is not an irrefutable proof.

    In Japan some people killed themselves because of a very high sense of the honor (Kamikaze pilots, Seppuku or Harakiri).

    Trinity

  13. #13
    sayso
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Hello sayso,



    Yes, christian believers had their lives at stake. However, not only christians were tortured or killed for their faith.
    Trinity
    Trinity,

    I'm not talking about the past, I'm talking about right now. It is true that people of other faiths as well as people of no faith at all were tortured and killed in the past, and probably still are. I'm not sure one could say it was/is always because of their faith.

    However, how many have been like the Apostle John? He was the only of the twelve to not die a martyr's death.

    It is said that John was banished to Patmos after being plunged into boiling oil in Rome and suffering nothing from it, and that the entire Colosseum were converted to Christianity upon witnessing this miracle.

    Trinity I wonder, do you believe that Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Life, and Nobody comes to the Father but through Jesus? And do you also believe that there is no other Name under heaven by which men must be saved?

  14. #14
    Trinity
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    Hi sayso,

    Quote Originally Posted by sayso
    I'm not sure one could say it was/is always because of their faith.
    We the christians killed the Jews because of their faith or about what we believed on their faith. Protestants and Catholics. Do you have heared about the blood libel? You should read Martin Luther booklet about the Jews and their lies.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel_against_Jews
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_their_Lies

    Dying for his faith is not a proof about the resurection. Christians do not have the monopoly of martyrs. There was Jewish martyrs, Muslim martyrs, Buddhist martyrs, etc.

    However, how many have been like the Apostle John? He was the only of the twelve to not die a martyr's death. It is said that John was banished to Patmos after being plunged into boiling oil in Rome and suffering nothing from it, and that the entire Colosseum were converted to Christianity upon witnessing this miracle.
    You believe to the traditions? You do not believe into the bible only? This is an extra-biblical story. No? Tertullian was the source of this story.

    Trinity I wonder, do you believe that Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Life, and Nobody comes to the Father but through Jesus? And do you also believe that there is no other Name under heaven by which men must be saved?
    Why not? Yes, but for anyone who had heard about Him. I am not Calvinist.

    Trinity
    Last edited by Trinity; 11-17-2008 at 10:37 PM.

  15. #15
    sayso
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Hi sayso,



    We the christians killed the Jews because of their faith or about what we believed on their faith. Protestants and Catholics. Do you have heared about the blood libel? You should read Martin Luther booklet about the Jews and their lies.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel_against_Jews
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_their_Lies
    It's odd that you would post this link about blood libel because, my own Catholic mother-in-law did tell me that her grandmother told her that she had to watch out for the Jews, as they kill little babies for their blood. She told me that she was scared to death of them because of the stories her grandmother told her. The fact that the victim was often canonized as a saint seems to indicate that they were Catholic.

    The other article about Martin Luther, I had not read and it is horrendous. But this honestly doesn't have anything to do with the martyrs I was speaking of.

    Many things have been said and done by "Christians", in the name of Jesus. But Jesus said, "many shall come in that day and say Lord Lord". But He will say, "depart from me I never knew you". Jesus said that you will know who are His by their fruit not by the fact that they say I am Christian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post

    Dying for his faith is not a proof about the resurrection. Christians do not have the monopoly of martyrs. There was Jewish martyrs, Muslim martyrs, Buddhist martyrs, etc.
    I never said that dying for one's faith is proof of the resurrection. I believe that Jesus resurrected because He said He would. Jesus is not a liar.

    I wasn't talking about the atrocities done to all kinds of people through all kinds of religions. It's one thing to be hated and killed because you are a certain religion. It's another thing to deliberately put yourself in harms way for the sake of those who want to kill you, in order to share the grace and love of God with them.

    I am talking about missionaries who leave the safety of their homes knowing that they are going to people who hate them and may very well kill them, to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm talking about people who live in countries where they know if they convert others to Christianity they will be beat, put in prison, or killed, but they do it anyway. They do it because they know that without Christ these people will face eternity in hell, and they love them enough that they are willing to lay down their lives for them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    You believe to the traditions? You do not believe into the bible only? This is an extra-biblical story. No? Tertullian was the source of this story.



    Why not? Yes, but for anyone who had heard about Him. I am not Calvinist.

    Trinity
    I know where the story comes from. I believe in history and in tradition. I just don't value either of these above the scriptures. I won't take Tertullian's story and make a doctrine out of it.

    It takes more than just hearing about Jesus to be a follower. I am not a Calvinist either. I just believe that what Jesus said is true. There is one way to the Father and that is through Jesus. There are many paths, but only one leads to life.


    Matthew 7

    13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

    14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

  16. #16
    Trinity
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    Hello sayso,

    Quote Originally Posted by sayso View Post
    It's odd that you would post this link about blood libel because, my own Catholic mother-in-law did tell me that her grandmother told her that she had to watch out for the Jews, as they kill little babies for their blood. She told me that she was scared to death of them because of the stories her grandmother told her. The fact that the victim was often canonized as a saint seems to indicate that they were Catholic.

    The other article about Martin Luther, I had not read and it is horrendous. But this honestly doesn't have anything to do with the martyrs I was speaking of.

    Many things have been said and done by "Christians", in the name of Jesus. But Jesus said, "many shall come in that day and say Lord Lord". But He will say, "depart from me I never knew you". Jesus said that you will know who are His by their fruit not by the fact that they say I am Christian.


    I never said that dying for one's faith is proof of the resurrection. I believe that Jesus resurrected because He said He would. Jesus is not a liar.

    I wasn't talking about the atrocities done to all kinds of people through all kinds of religions. It's one thing to be hated and killed because you are a certain religion. It's another thing to deliberately put yourself in harms way for the sake of those who want to kill you, in order to share the grace and love of God with them.

    I am talking about missionaries who leave the safety of their homes knowing that they are going to people who hate them and may very well kill them, to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm talking about people who live in countries where they know if they convert others to Christianity they will be beat, put in prison, or killed, but they do it anyway. They do it because they know that without Christ these people will face eternity in hell, and they love them enough that they are willing to lay down their lives for them.



    I know where the story comes from. I believe in history and in tradition. I just don't value either of these above the scriptures. I won't take Tertullian's story and make a doctrine out of it.

    It takes more than just hearing about Jesus to be a follower. I am not a Calvinist either. I just believe that what Jesus said is true. There is one way to the Father and that is through Jesus. There are many paths, but only one leads to life.


    Matthew 7

    13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

    14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
    We agree agreeably about many things. This is good.

    Two things.

    1) If I had not adopted Jesus I would have been Buddhist. However, there is principles in the Buddhism that help me to be more human.
    2) I agree with you that christian missionaries are exposing themselves. willingly. Tibetan monks also expose themselves to the imperialist of China into their motherland (Himalayas). They are also victims of the repression and some died as martyrs (resistance to the invasion and communism).

    Trinity
    Last edited by Trinity; 11-18-2008 at 06:43 PM.

  17. #17
    Kogseeker
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    I think that my point may had been misunderstood. I am fully aware of people dying for their faith in other religions. Jesus told his disciples he was going to die and then be resurrected on the third day. My point was, if he really hadn't been resurrected and seen by them, dont you think they would of brushed him off as just a liar? Why then would they go on to preach about him and lay down their lives for him if he hadn't really resurrected?

  18. #18
    Columcille
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    Default Rationalization for resurrection.

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker View Post
    The Bible speaks about Jesus miraculous resurrection. But are there any proofs of his resurrection? Witnesses claim that Jesus resurrected, but how legitimate are their claims? Some believe the story of the resurrection has been stretched to the point it is distorted from generation to generation.

    TruthSeeker
    I agree with Trinity that there is no concrete proof of the resurrection, but do not think it hard to grasp its certainty. I think a good saying that a man might be willing to lay down his life for a good man. But is Jesus really a good man? Once we determine his goodness, we must revisit this willingness to die for a good man. As Lewis has pointed out, there are only three ways in which we can see Christ; namely, as a liar, a lunatic, or really God the Son in the flesh. His claim to be God is central and cannot be seperated from his frame of mind. If he believed it, and was not God, then he is a lunatic. But what he taught is effective emotional healing, almost all religions would agree with the sermon on the mount and I am sure every psychologist would agree to its profoundness as edifying to the mind and well being of their patient. Besides, we know very well how we respond to lunacy in other people, their credibility is often rejected. If he was a liar, nowing his statement to be untrue, then we cannot say he was a good man... no matter how good his teachings were. Yet every religion, Jesus is considered a good man, a prophet, a righteous man who was a *******, and etc.. So it comes down to the third option. He was who he really said he was.

    Now back to the willingness of men to die for a good man. All the accounts of Christianity in its early formative years demonstrates a p***ive account the martyrs who knew Jesus and observed his resurrection. They were not dying for a lunatic or a liar, they called him Lord and understood his divinity. They could very well have denied it and saved their own skin, but they knew the truth because they observed it. This seems to me one of the biggest persuasive thoughts. St. Paul states in 1 Cor. 15.14-19 the following:

    And if Christ has not been raised, then empty (too) is our preaching; empty, too, your faith.
    15
    Then we are also false witnesses to God, because we testified against God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if in fact the dead are not raised.
    16
    For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised,
    17
    and if Christ has not been raised, 6 your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.
    18
    Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
    19
    If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are the most pitiable people of all.


    Now there are other reasons along with this can also be grasped... I should think the necessity of a resurrection is necessary for absolute justice. The alternatives of there not being a resurrection leave the individual's moral responsibilities in their own lifetime to be as relative and inconsistent as the moral equivalency of might makes right, the ends justify the means, and the rationalization that the deed is alright because it hurts nobody. Annilation lets the wicked off scott-free, Hitler is no better off than St. Theresa; karma with its cycles of life cannot answer to the individual soul's own immoral acts since whatever form it takes on next does not share the punishment. What would Hitler's next incarnation be like? An ant, a goat, there are certainly many of these on the lower food chain and how would a goat's suffering bring justice to Hitler's atrocities?

    As such, once we get the idea of a resurrection as being necessary... the power of such a resurrection by a moral law giver must take presidence and a reconcilation from sinner to saint points to a universal conception of the dying god motif in mythology. Lewis points to this in his letters and also in "Mere Christianity" where Christ is the fulfillment.

  19. #19
    Heart2Heart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    I think a good saying that a man might be willing to lay down his life for a good man. But is Jesus really a good man? Once we determine his goodness, we must revisit this willingness to die for a good man.
    How could Jesus be a good man, if He deceived many people to follow Him? The supposition would be if Judaism is true that means Judaism has been a true religion all this time to the present, which means, Jesus is not a good man. Christianity has been a false religion all this time.

    But now, let's suppose Jesus did resurrect and died for our sins, then I would say He is a good man/God.
    Last edited by Heart2Heart; 02-08-2009 at 05:05 PM.

  20. #20
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart2Heart View Post
    How could Jesus be a good man, if He deceived many people to follow Him? The supposition would be if Judaism is true that means Judaism has been a true religion all this time to the present, which means, Jesus is not a good man. Christianity has been a false religion all this time.

    But now, let's suppose Jesus did resurrect and died for our sins, then I would say He is a good man/God.
    But Judaism is true, God established it. God cannot be a liar. However, as plans are made... there are certain progressions or foundations laid down. One must have a foundation from which to build a house... as such we should view Judaism as a building block and not the completed house. The resurrection of Christ is sort of a mechanically engineered design by God. The blueprints are laid out in the O.T.. As such, Judaism is true even now, but a real Jew is one inwardly and so as Christ fulfills Judaism.

  21. #21
    GraftedIn73
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker View Post
    The Bible speaks about Jesus miraculous resurrection. But are there any proofs of his resurrection? Witnesses claim that Jesus resurrected, but how legitimate are their claims? Some believe the story of the resurrection has been stretched to the point it is distorted from generation to generation.

    TruthSeeker
    Hi TS,

    Here are some the 'proofs' that I accept as convincing:

    Daniel the prophet prophesied when Christ would come and that He would be cut-off. Daniel 9

    Isaiah the prophet prophesied that Christ would be put to death, but not for His own sins. After He died as a sin offering, He would see His seed, prolong His days, and bring about the pleasure of the Lord. Isaiah 53

    David the psalmist prophesied the manner of His death. Psalm 22

    David also prophesied that God would raise Christ from the dead. Psalm 16:10 (Acts 2:27, 2:31, 13:15)

    Christ Himself prophesied His death, burial and resurrection. He also prophesied the coming destruction of Jerusalem, as evidence of God's judgment on the Jews of that generation, and His replacing the old covenant with the new. Matthew chapters 20-24, plus many others.

    The resurrection of Christ was God's seal of approval on the complete work of Christ. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was God's evidence that He would no longer accept the blood of bulls and goats, since the Holy blood of Christ had been offered and accepted in the true Temple in heaven. Hebrews chapters 7-9

    Jesus Christ was preached crucified, buried and resurrected to his own contemporaries. They saw the works of Christ, saw the miracles, saw the weak willed men that were with Him, saw their transformation, saw the miracles wrought by His Apostles, saw the conversion od Saul of Tarsus. They saw all this and they saw the mighty Roman Empire. It is beyond imagination that these people would have chosen to follow a crucified, dead lunatic, and his misbegotten band of disciples, to certain death. Jesus of Nazareth was not the only contender for the ***le of Messiah. He Himself prophesied that many others would come in His name, proclaiming themselves to be the Messiah. Look at all the competing Messianic religions we have today: We have, the Church of Jesus Christ, ummm.... The Church of Jesus Christ, ummm.... The Church of Jesus Christ! All we have from that era is the Church of Jesus Christ! History records the names of the many imposters who came and how they and their followers were wiped out by the Romans. It's interesting to note that we don't know the names of any of them, unless we are students of history.

    To me, these are convincing proofs!

  22. #22
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker View Post
    The Bible speaks about Jesus miraculous resurrection. But are there any proofs of his resurrection?
    Why yes of course, , just probably not the kind you seek. God knows the heart, and the proof of His wisdom linked to faith against the awkward visual evidence of what seeps into the eye gate.

    For if:

    “we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen, ,” now being “eternal” (II Cor 4:18). , ,

    But refuse, after showing us He allowed Thomas’s demands of proof only to teach us:

    “do not be unbelieving, but believing” (John 20:27)

    How are we any better than the petulant son who would rather despise the correct time to nurture that faith upon the report:

    “To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days, , ,” (Acts 1:3)

    There’s your “proofs”, and the forty days have p***ed, or haven’t you heard? Now He has once and for all put the old request for proof back into the unbeliever’s hands.

    “Now faith is the ***urance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1)

    If there was anything I could impress above all would be this, if someone scientifically could show you forty proofs of His resurrection through the door on the left, yet the door on the right was the way of faith, well, can you think of a better way to explain what just might make God happy?, , , be my welcome guest!

    "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6)

  23. #23
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthSeeker View Post
    The Bible speaks about Jesus miraculous resurrection. But are there any proofs of his resurrection? Witnesses claim that Jesus resurrected, but how legitimate are their claims? Some believe the story of the resurrection has been stretched to the point it is distorted from generation to generation.

    TruthSeeker
    Jesus actually addressed this topic in one of his sermons.

    we have all we need to believe in the resurrection.
    The fact that some people do not believe is not the fault of the church, the Bible, or of the Lord.

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