Is the Resurrection Fabricated?

[Kogseeker]

Not to mention that the apostles, whom actually saw him alive after his death, were willing to die themselves for the gospel. If jesus hadn't resurrected, it would be hard to believe that they would be willing to die for a lie.

[sayso]

Originally Posted by Kogseeker

Not to mention that the apostles, whom actually saw him alive after his death, were willing to die themselves for the gospel. If jesus hadn't resurrected, it would be hard to believe that they would be willing to die for a lie.

To those who know Him, it needs no proof.

It's like me saying prove to me that my ancestors came to this country. I have studied genealogy but haven't been able to document it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Yet I know they did because I'm here.

I know that Jesus is alive because He revealed Himself to me, not through my physical eyes, but through spiritual eyes.

[Trinity]

What can be a proof?

According to my comprehension this can be something built by the conjecture of some evidences. But, in science we have to be more conclusive. An hypothesis is not a theory. Scientifically, we can not understand or explain the resurrection. To prove the resurrection without doubts, it is necessary to reproduce this phenomenon anytime. This is why we have to have faith. For now this is still an impossibility and without a scientific proof.

We should not confuse what is a proof in a court with a scientific proof. This is not the same thing. We believe those eyewitnesses are saying the truth. And like a jury we conclude that this was probable.

Trinity

[sayso]

Originally Posted by Kogseeker

Not to mention that the apostles, whom actually saw him alive after his death, were willing to die themselves for the gospel. If jesus hadn't resurrected, it would be hard to believe that they would be willing to die for a lie.

Kogseeker,

Even today people die for the sake of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those who never saw His life, death, or resurrection with their own eyes are willing to lay down their own lives for the Gospel. If you visit the Voice of the Martyrs website you can read about the persecution of the saints of God that happen daily. They are beaten, imprisoned, and killed, yet we hear little if anything about it on the world news.

[Trinity]

Hello sayso,

Originally Posted by sayso

Kogseeker,

Even today people die for the sake of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those who never saw His life, death, or resurrection with their own eyes are willing to lay down their own lives for the Gospel. If you visit the Voice of the Martyrs website you can read about the persecution of the saints of God that happen daily. They are beaten, imprisoned, and killed, yet we hear little if anything about it on the world news.

Yes, christian believers had their lives at stake. However, not only christians were tortured or killed for their faith. Heretics died, believers in other religions (Jews, Muslims, Buddhist monks in Tibet, etc), some died and was tortured for their political opinions, others for more justice or for the peace (all the spies who were tortured and killed by the Gestapo). In brief, this is not exclusive to the christianity. Some people can object and say that this is not an irrefutable proof.

In Japan some people killed themselves because of a very high sense of the honor (Kamikaze pilots, Seppuku or Harakiri).

Trinity

[sayso]

Originally Posted by Trinity

Hello sayso,



Yes, christian believers had their lives at stake. However, not only christians were tortured or killed for their faith.
Trinity

Trinity,

I'm not talking about the past, I'm talking about right now. It is true that people of other faiths as well as people of no faith at all were tortured and killed in the past, and probably still are. I'm not sure one could say it was/is always because of their faith.

However, how many have been like the Apostle John? He was the only of the twelve to not die a martyr's death.

It is said that John was banished to Patmos after being plunged into boiling oil in Rome and suffering nothing from it, and that the entire Colosseum were converted to Christianity upon witnessing this miracle.

Trinity I wonder, do you believe that Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Life, and Nobody comes to the Father but through Jesus? And do you also believe that there is no other Name under heaven by which men must be saved?

[Trinity]

Hi sayso,

Originally Posted by sayso

I'm not sure one could say it was/is always because of their faith.

We the christians killed the Jews because of their faith or about what we believed on their faith. Protestants and Catholics. Do you have heared about the blood libel? You should read Martin Luther booklet about the Jews and their lies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel_against_Jews
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_their_Lies

Dying for his faith is not a proof about the resurection. Christians do not have the monopoly of martyrs. There was Jewish martyrs, Muslim martyrs, Buddhist martyrs, etc.

However, how many have been like the Apostle John? He was the only of the twelve to not die a martyr's death. It is said that John was banished to Patmos after being plunged into boiling oil in Rome and suffering nothing from it, and that the entire Colosseum were converted to Christianity upon witnessing this miracle.

You believe to the traditions? You do not believe into the bible only? This is an extra-biblical story. No? Tertullian was the source of this story.

Trinity I wonder, do you believe that Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Life, and Nobody comes to the Father but through Jesus? And do you also believe that there is no other Name under heaven by which men must be saved?

Why not? Yes, but for anyone who had heard about Him. I am not Calvinist.

Trinity

[sayso]

Originally Posted by Trinity

Hi sayso,



We the christians killed the Jews because of their faith or about what we believed on their faith. Protestants and Catholics. Do you have heared about the blood libel? You should read Martin Luther booklet about the Jews and their lies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel_against_Jews
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_their_Lies

It's odd that you would post this link about blood libel because, my own Catholic mother-in-law did tell me that her grandmother told her that she had to watch out for the Jews, as they kill little babies for their blood. She told me that she was scared to death of them because of the stories her grandmother told her. The fact that the victim was often canonized as a saint seems to indicate that they were Catholic.

The other article about Martin Luther, I had not read and it is horrendous. But this honestly doesn't have anything to do with the martyrs I was speaking of.

Many things have been said and done by "Christians", in the name of Jesus. But Jesus said, "many shall come in that day and say Lord Lord". But He will say, "depart from me I never knew you". Jesus said that you will know who are His by their fruit not by the fact that they say I am Christian.

Originally Posted by Trinity

Dying for his faith is not a proof about the resurrection. Christians do not have the monopoly of martyrs. There was Jewish martyrs, Muslim martyrs, Buddhist martyrs, etc.

I never said that dying for one's faith is proof of the resurrection. I believe that Jesus resurrected because He said He would. Jesus is not a liar.

I wasn't talking about the atrocities done to all kinds of people through all kinds of religions. It's one thing to be hated and killed because you are a certain religion. It's another thing to deliberately put yourself in harms way for the sake of those who want to kill you, in order to share the grace and love of God with them.

I am talking about missionaries who leave the safety of their homes knowing that they are going to people who hate them and may very well kill them, to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm talking about people who live in countries where they know if they convert others to Christianity they will be beat, put in prison, or killed, but they do it anyway. They do it because they know that without Christ these people will face eternity in hell, and they love them enough that they are willing to lay down their lives for them.

Originally Posted by Trinity

You believe to the traditions? You do not believe into the bible only? This is an extra-biblical story. No? Tertullian was the source of this story.



Why not? Yes, but for anyone who had heard about Him. I am not Calvinist.

Trinity

I know where the story comes from. I believe in history and in tradition. I just don't value either of these above the scriptures. I won't take Tertullian's story and make a doctrine out of it.

It takes more than just hearing about Jesus to be a follower. I am not a Calvinist either. I just believe that what Jesus said is true. There is one way to the Father and that is through Jesus. There are many paths, but only one leads to life.


Matthew 7

13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

[Trinity]

Hello sayso,

Originally Posted by sayso

It's odd that you would post this link about blood libel because, my own Catholic mother-in-law did tell me that her grandmother told her that she had to watch out for the Jews, as they kill little babies for their blood. She told me that she was scared to death of them because of the stories her grandmother told her. The fact that the victim was often canonized as a saint seems to indicate that they were Catholic.

The other article about Martin Luther, I had not read and it is horrendous. But this honestly doesn't have anything to do with the martyrs I was speaking of.

Many things have been said and done by "Christians", in the name of Jesus. But Jesus said, "many shall come in that day and say Lord Lord". But He will say, "depart from me I never knew you". Jesus said that you will know who are His by their fruit not by the fact that they say I am Christian.


I never said that dying for one's faith is proof of the resurrection. I believe that Jesus resurrected because He said He would. Jesus is not a liar.

I wasn't talking about the atrocities done to all kinds of people through all kinds of religions. It's one thing to be hated and killed because you are a certain religion. It's another thing to deliberately put yourself in harms way for the sake of those who want to kill you, in order to share the grace and love of God with them.

I am talking about missionaries who leave the safety of their homes knowing that they are going to people who hate them and may very well kill them, to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm talking about people who live in countries where they know if they convert others to Christianity they will be beat, put in prison, or killed, but they do it anyway. They do it because they know that without Christ these people will face eternity in hell, and they love them enough that they are willing to lay down their lives for them.



I know where the story comes from. I believe in history and in tradition. I just don't value either of these above the scriptures. I won't take Tertullian's story and make a doctrine out of it.

It takes more than just hearing about Jesus to be a follower. I am not a Calvinist either. I just believe that what Jesus said is true. There is one way to the Father and that is through Jesus. There are many paths, but only one leads to life.


Matthew 7

13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

We agree agreeably about many things. This is good.

Two things.

1) If I had not adopted Jesus I would have been Buddhist. However, there is principles in the Buddhism that help me to be more human.
2) I agree with you that christian missionaries are exposing themselves. willingly. Tibetan monks also expose themselves to the imperialist of China into their motherland (Himalayas). They are also victims of the repression and some died as martyrs (resistance to the invasion and communism).

Trinity

[Kogseeker]

I think that my point may had been misunderstood. I am fully aware of people dying for their faith in other religions. Jesus told his disciples he was going to die and then be resurrected on the third day. My point was, if he really hadn't been resurrected and seen by them, dont you think they would of brushed him off as just a liar? Why then would they go on to preach about him and lay down their lives for him if he hadn't really resurrected?