Exodus International are culpable

[TRiG]

Exodus International are well known for disseminating lies about homosexuality. In their homeground of America, where true research is widely available, this is perhaps not too great a crime. However, things are different in Uganda. http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/03/13/9742

TRiG.

[MacG]

Exodus International are well known for disseminating lies about homosexuality. In their homeground of America, where true research is widely available, this is perhaps not too great a crime. However, things are different in Uganda. http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/03/13/9742

TRiG.

Trig,

Perhaps I am illinformed. What are the lies that they tell?

Blessings,

MacG

[Columcille]

Trig,

Perhaps I am illinformed. What are the lies that they tell?

Blessings,

MacG

Place me among them please!

After all, healthy minds want to know. We are reduced down to a soulless biology in order for happiness to be attained by the APA, Satanist, and the athiest. Happiness is attained by "living it up" in the "here and now." No studies are going to be told about abuse, neglect, and other experiences unless it can be politically obfuscated.

[Austin Canes]

Many have be 'indoctrinated' to believe that a person who is homosexual is 'evil' (just for possessing a homosexual-orientation); I think there is something very wrong about that.

I think that in fact, the problems surrounding and stemming from "heterosexuality" are of a sufficient magnitude, that barbaric laws such as those in Uganda represent borderline insanity.

[Columcille]

Many have be 'indoctrinated' to believe that a person who is homosexual is 'evil' (just for possessing a homosexual-orientation); I think there is something very wrong about that.

I think that in fact, the problems surrounding and stemming from "heterosexuality" are of a sufficient magnitude, that barbaric laws such as those in Uganda represent borderline insanity.

Where's the mantra now, "one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist?"

As far as Exodus International is concerned, there is no body that attends that is "forced" to come. The indoctrination of communism and other things comes as a mandatory fact. Secondly, nobody in Exodus Internatlonal, that I know of and even participated in with a sister group called "Alternatives" in San Diego has stated that the homosexual is "evil." If anything, the idea of original sin makes us all prone to the evils or temptations of the flesh and of the temptations of those vices against the theological virtues.

"heterosexuality" is not the problem. If there are unjust laws set up by the Nation states, it is their laws nor ours. If you want to educate us, please do. That seems to be a good thing to do in a forum, because I do not want to present a case based on hearsay or conjecture, nor do I want to speak on something I know nothing about. You should be the same and consider your audience may not be aware of any general statements you make.

[asdf]

"heterosexuality" is not the problem.

Of course not. It sounds manifestly absurd to make such a sweeping claim about all people of a given sexual orientation when it's turned around like that, doesn't it?

[Columcille]

Of course not. It sounds manifestly absurd to make such a sweeping claim about all people of a given sexual orientation when it's turned around like that, doesn't it?

the problems surrounding and stemming from "heterosexuality" are of a sufficient magnitude--Austin Canes

Looked at the article again. Exodus International ministry stated what I thought they would say.

Exodus says neither Schmierer nor the ministry agrees or endorses Uganda’s criminalization of homosexuality law, imprisonment of homosexuals or compulsory therapy. Rather, the ministry says it “unequivocally denounces” the positions the government of Uganda has towards homosexuality.

TRiG stated in his ***le that Exodus International is culpable. For Uganda?
Not all all. Uganda is Uganda. If they have problems with their democracy, it is their own concern. If it is a legit system, that their nation is soveriegn, it is the place of the Ugandans to change the system in as much a way as Martin Luther King Jr. or Mohandas Karmchand Gandhi did for their own country.

Of course, this is not what TRiG stated. He is wanting to criminalize Exodus International by pairing it with Uganda.

[Austin Canes]

Where's the mantra now, "one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist?"

I don't live by any "mantra", and I pity those who might.

As far as Exodus International is concerned, there is no body that attends that is "forced" to come.

I don't know of any such situations either; still, I think the criticisms of that organization by others that are more credible... are worthy of consideration. Exodus does not have a perfect record of getting everything 'right'.

The indoctrination of communism and other things comes as a mandatory fact.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Secondly, nobody in Exodus Internatlonal, that I know of and even participated in with a sister group called "Alternatives" in San Diego has stated that the homosexual is "evil." If anything, the idea of original sin makes us all prone to the evils or temptations of the flesh and of the temptations of those vices against the theological virtues.

I think the bottom line though, is at what point do we stop denying homosexual people certain rights, freedoms and status in our society, based purely upon the religious beliefs of others? In due time (which I believe is upon us), that must be reasonably considered.

"heterosexuality" is not the problem.

There are "zero" heterosexuals, who sin "heterosexually"? Really, it is quite hypocritical of "heterosexuals" to symbolically place their foot on the necks of homosexuals, while there is so much they could/should attend to in their own lives.

If there are unjust laws set up by the Nation states, it is their laws nor ours.

We aren't living in a vacuum on this planet; that might be nice in some cases (if it were truly so), but it isn't reality.

If you want to educate us, please do.

Educations has great value, but good common and honest sense has to be considered to get a most full picture of reality (truth).

That seems to be a good thing to do in a forum, because I do not want to present a case based on hearsay or conjecture, nor do I want to speak on something I know nothing about. You should be the same and consider your audience may not be aware of any general statements you make.

I would generally agree, and as long as most people (in any given forum) realize they are ultimately sharing their "opinions" (personal views), few will be seriously misled.

I don't expect to be "educated" here per se, but I am interested in bouncing ideas within the forum, to see what new thoughts might be sparked overall.

[Austin Canes]

...In response, Exodus International said it applauds its board member Don Schmierer, who attended the Uganda conference, for his effort to convey an “alternative message that encompasses a compassionate, biblical view of homosexuality,” according to a statement by Exodus International president Alan Chambers to The Christian Post on Wednesday.

I cannot argue with a truly "compassionate" approach to homosexuality; but I do think it is time for such 'compassion' to be defined more clearly. As it is, people do horrible things to homosexual people, in the name of "compassion".


[/quote]Exodus says neither Schmierer nor the ministry agrees or endorses Uganda’s criminalization of homosexuality law, imprisonment of homosexuals or compulsory therapy. Rather, the ministry says it “unequivocally denounces” the positions the government of Uganda has towards homosexuality...[/quote]


To me, Uganda is WHACK and hypocritical in their view of homosexuality (as many human beings tend to be). Even so, we should focus on our own nations primarily, to help ensure that human rights are observed and/or improved where this is concerned. For unless one is committing a crime or breaking a law of some sort here in America, I see no good reasons to show social or legal prejudice towards them. I'm sure that other nations will have a lot further to go towards justice as we know it here in the U.S.A.

[Columcille]

Austin Canes, hopefully by now, after reading me a little bit, you will gather that my particular fight is not the social angle of politics, but specifically politics as it relates inside the Church. Christians are citizens, so politics is a part of every citizen's right, but I think it more important to distinguish the Church from the World. If you are a Christian, then I also ask for you to present a positive hermeneutical exegete that supports a Scriptural approval of homosexual unions. I would also, if you feel Tradition is a pillar, the same as perhaps experience or reason, then I also ask that you present a historical perspective within documents and writings of the Church tradition that you are a part of.

[Austin Canes]

Austin Canes, hopefully by now, after reading me a little bit, you will gather that my particular fight is not the social angle of politics, but specifically politics as it relates inside the Church.

But that isn't as isolated as you seem to imagine.

Christians are citizens, so politics is a part of every citizen's right, but I think it more important to distinguish the Church from the World.

Show me how you can do that, without divorcing "Christians" from reality itself?

If you are a Christian, then I also ask for you to present a positive hermeneutical exegete that supports a Scriptural approval of homosexual unions.

I don't believe you need that, to understand where I am coming from. And I already know that I'm not likely going to change your 'biblical' beliefs; we'll disagree on certain things, no matter what I present to you. My primary purpose is to share what I believe; not necessarily strip you of what you might believe.

I would also, if you feel Tradition is a pillar, the same as perhaps experience or reason, then I also ask that you present a historical perspective within documents and writings of the Church tradition that you are a part of.

I feel there is something either corrupt or wrong about certain traditions, but I'm one who sees fit to allow people their beliefs, if they must retain them (even for reasons I don't find acceptable). My greatest contentions with ANYONE come when they seek to IMPOSE their beliefs upon other human beings.

[Columcille]

I don't believe you need that, to understand where I am coming from. And I already know that I'm not likely going to change your 'biblical' beliefs; we'll disagree on certain things, no matter what I present to you. My primary purpose is to share what I believe; not necessarily strip you of what you might believe.

I feel there is something either corrupt or wrong about certain traditions, but I'm one who sees fit to allow people their beliefs, if they must retain them (even for reasons I don't find acceptable). My greatest contentions with ANYONE come when they seek to IMPOSE their beliefs upon other human beings.

Austin Canes, perhaps you do not recognize the purpose of the board. Look at top and read... "Walter Martin Ministries FORUM "Spiritual answers and reasons for faith... renew your mind." Of course, renew your mind is an taken from Romans 12.2, "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God--what is good and acceptable and perfect" (NRSV).

If you are a professing Christian, it is no good to try and eliminate God out of the equation. What good is Christianity without Christ? Only the world seeks to level the Church down to its own playing field. It is not our duty to conform to the World, but transform ourselves to the will of God. This is done by examining the Scriptures, by reviewing the consistency of interpretation throughout the ages in the Tradition, and by examining reason and experience in light of God's authority found in both Scripture and found in the living magesterium (for the Catholic) in matters regarding correct doctrine and correct morals.

IMPOSING? No... its is more like 2 Tim. 3.16... "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work" (NRSV).

And likewise in regards to the Tradition: Acts 15.6, 28. "The Apostles and the elders met together to consider this matter." and "For it seems good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials:"


Mmmm. You used the word "impose" and the NRSV uses the same when it came the authority of the Christian leadership by the Holy Ghost and the Apostolic tradition carried on by the Bishops put into place by the Apostles and the "elders" or "presbuterios."

So let's reexamine Austin your position.
1) are you a professing Christian?
2) If you are a professing Christian, are you to reject the purpose of the Scriptures?
3) Even if you are not a professing Christian, are you to say that the Apostles never "imposed" their decisions on the Christian followers after careful deliberation? It seems only reasonable that they in fact did "impose" and as such, if you find your situation precarious due to the "imposition," I suggest you reject Christ altogether.

[Austin Canes]

Austin Canes, perhaps you do not recognize the purpose of the board. Look at top and read... "Walter Martin Ministries FORUM "Spiritual answers and reasons for faith... renew your mind."

Hmmm... I'll definitely try not to be disruptive or deliberately difficult; that is never my primary purpose in discussing or contemplating the things of religion; being petty is of no use to myself or others.

I'm not sure about all the ways we disagree, since I am surely new here. And for that reasons, I've already read much of what you have to say about homosexuality; that hasn't left me with reasons to believe that what you say should not be left unchallenged. Or, is it that you believe you 'opinions' should not or cannot ultimately be challenged? (I'm not certain.)

Of course, renew your mind is an taken from Romans 12.2, "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God--what is good and acceptable and perfect" (NRSV).

This goes as far as your FAITH takes you; and to where it takes YOU, may certainly not be where others would go (even as it relates to the same book which you suggest is for such 'renewing' of the mind).

If you are a professing Christian, it is no good to try and eliminate God out of the equation.

And if you assume/think that someone challenging you is the equivalent of the same... you are misleading yourself.

What good is Christianity without Christ?

I've been to places where even "Christians" should be asked that question.

Only the world seeks to level the Church down to its own playing field.

How unreachable was/is Jesus? Perhaps the "Church" is too high (in a very practical sense)? There is more to Christianity, than the set of standards that many would ascribe to it.

It is not our duty to conform to the World, but transform ourselves to the will of God.

And there is a point where you and no one else can define that for an individual. Conformed to God Spirit, isn't always what you might believe or say that it is. And it goes without saying that debates about that can be perpetual... even in the midst of using Scripture as support. You aren't the first, and I won't be the last to think/believe we are supported by God or the Bible... to at least a reasonable degree. And be certain that I won't be one who pretends that God has approved of every expression I make here.

If that means to you that I'm not a "Christian" (which I don't believe I must claim to be), so be it.

This is done by examining the Scriptures, by reviewing the consistency of interpretation throughout the ages in the Tradition, and by examining reason and experience in light of God's authority found in both Scripture and found in the living magesterium (for the Catholic) in matters regarding correct doctrine and correct morals.

And some of that I have done; even as I continue to do that, we may indeed agree and disagree (hopefully as civilly as we should, especially in a public forum).

IMPOSING? No... its is more like 2 Tim. 3.16... "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work" (NRSV).

Even so, you cannot deny that SOME (who are called "Christians") have and would "impose" their beliefs upon others; this isn't something you can deny.

And likewise in regards to the Tradition: Acts 15.6, 28. "The Apostles and the elders met together to consider this matter." and "For it seems good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials:"

It makes sense, but what remains to be seen ultimately... is how that all translates into what YOU take to the streets yourself (as it were). I'm definitely not trying to be hard with you, but I do try to communicate my faith even now as I share these words. We may surely disagree, even as we seek to agree.

Mmmm. You used the word "impose" and the NRSV uses the same when it came the authority of the Christian leadership by the Holy Ghost and the Apostolic tradition carried on by the Bishops put into place by the Apostles and the "elders" or "presbuterios."

Perhaps, you are onto something indeed; still, I'm here to say that submitting to the will of God, isn't necessarily the same as allowing oneself to be herded-along as unthinking, brainwashed sheep. That is the picture and effect of many who are within religion. By God's grace and mecy, I pray that more do not fall victim to that kind of thing.

So let's reexamine Austin your position.

And ultimately your own, despite the authority which you believe it is based upon.

1) are you a professing Christian?

Please, define the range of meaning that you believe your question entails.

2) If you are a professing Christian, are you to reject the purpose of the Scriptures?

I believe what you or I may pull from Scripture or embrace from it as religious values, may not be the same for each person on this planet.

3) Even if you are not a professing Christian, are you to say that the Apostles never "imposed" their decisions on the Christian followers after careful deliberation?

To what degree (if measurable at all) should one be subject to the demands or teaching of other men? I know that the essence of God may certainly be represented by any given religious view, but in what ways would you agree such views might be 'challenged' (if at all)?

It seems only reasonable that they in fact did "impose" and as such, if you find your situation precarious due to the "imposition," I suggest you reject Christ altogether.

Your suggestion to me, is an expression of human arrogance; even so, I respect the reality that you are human and so am I.

[Columcille]

I see Austin you deflect answering direct questions. Either you profess to be a Christian or not, it matters little what your brand of Christianity is. The central pillar of Christianity is not the various -isms, but of a relationship with Christ. If you claim to be a Christian, how you determine that relationship with Christ without the Scriptures is a little absurd to me. Picking and choosing what you like rather than what you need does not seem a reliable workable relationship with God.

[Columcille]

If you are not a Christian, it serves me no purpose to talk Scripture or Tradition with you. I would be casting pearls before swine, as Jesus so aptly put it. It would be a waste of time for both you and me. If you are not a Christian, I would rather discuss other aspects on the topic not related to the Church. If you are not a Christian, you have no real say in the Church's decisions or dialogue; just as much as I have no right to bud in to a Buddhist conversation and dictate to them how they are suppose to operate.

[Austin Canes]

I see Austin you deflect answering direct questions.

Honestly, I don't believe in direct answers to questions we cannot answer completely. Still, I'm not deflecting, sometimes I'm just saying in a nice way, that I do not believe I "know" the complete answer. Some things I am reasonably certain of, but realize that what I know is not necessarily something I can/must communicate.

I suppose that can seem like deflection at times.

Either you profess to be a Christian or not, it matters little what your brand of Christianity is.

Don't worry about that; I would hope nevertheless that you share what YOU believe; I'm not here to butt heads with you personally... so you won't detect me trying to find out where you are in your faith. That just seems petty to me overall.

The central pillar of Christianity is not the various -isms, but of a relationship with Christ.

And I'm here to tell you, that regardless of what you've likely shared in this forum already... you haven't but scraped the surface of the actual height, width or breadth of such a "relationship"; certainly not as it pertains to all human beings. There are just some things you cannot possibly know.

If you claim to be a Christian, how you determine that relationship with Christ without the Scriptures is a little absurd to me.

And if I began to compare 'religions' at all, there would be many thousands of things to disagree upon. Funny thing is, homosexual people (primarily by virtue of man-made traditions stemming from religion) are generally caught in the middle. That they would 'fight' at various points in time to better their position... isn't difficult to understand.

Picking and choosing what you like rather than what you need does not seem a reliable workable relationship with God.

I can agree with that as a general principle, but I don't see where anyone should have to BUY and EMBRACE what someone wishes were imposed upon them. God to me, isn't like most "Christians" (especially where it concerns homosexual people).

[Columcille]

Since Christ says in the Gospels that to deny him before men, he will deny them before the Father is a serious matter, and you have not answered directly that you are a Christian... I will have to assume that you are not. Hence, my discussion to you regarding the Church is without purpose and a complete waste of time. I will have to discuss other relevant subjects with you on the matter of homosexuality, but not as a "brother in Christ."

[Austin Canes]

Since Christ says in the Gospels that to deny him before men, he will deny them before the Father is a serious matter, and you have not answered directly that you are a Christian... I will have to assume that you are not.

How is it that people KNOW that someone is a "Christian", without them saying it, or putting on (consciously) any of the conventions or conventions which are often associated with "religion" stemming from the same?

You can assume what you wish/must, but God has a perfect view of reality; even if we cannot see pass our own corneas.

Hence, my discussion to you regarding the Church is without purpose and a complete waste of time.

In your eyes, perhaps that is true; yet life and experiences with thousands of other human beings has proven to me it is not. Again, I may surely not connect with YOU... but that is certainly not my sole purpose in saying/expressing the very things I do.

I will have to discuss other relevant subjects with you on the matter of homosexuality, but not as a "brother in Christ."

Ok. I can relate in that way, if you must take the approach as indicated. I've always been human; this "Christian" thing, is a work-in-progress (all except for the part where Jesus declares something which doesn't hinge upon your or anyone else's approval).

[Columcille]

How is it that people KNOW that someone is a "Christian", without them saying it, or putting on (consciously) any of the conventions or conventions which are often associated with "religion" stemming from the same?

First, I have a couple of quotations.

Matthew 10.32-33
Everyone therefore who shall confess Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Romans 10. 9-11
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."



It seems rather clear by scriptures of the Christians that a confession before men is necessary to be a Christain. Since you are rejecting "conventions" the "conventions" have rejected you. You are no more a Christian, until you confess him as such.

[asdf]

It seems rather clear by scriptures of the Christians that a confession before men is necessary to be a Christain. Since you are rejecting "conventions" the "conventions" have rejected you. You are no more a Christian, until you confess him as such.

A "confession before men" or an affirmation before strangers on the internets?

[Austin Canes]

A "confession before men" or an affirmation before strangers on the internets?

Great question.

I find it interesting that some are so apt to judge others; I'm certain something is wrong with that.

[Austin Canes]

First, I have a couple of quotations.

Matthew 10.32-33
Everyone therefore who shall confess Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Personally, I tend to despise the behavior where one or many so-called "Christians" go about with their holy-litmus-paper, testing anyone they wish to. Treating their hunting of whatever inane parameters they determine as some religious-sport.

They judge where they should not, and often too harshly at that; they are being HYPOCRITES (in my view); they chase people away from 'faith' with their human-antics.

Romans 10. 9-11
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

This is MORE than the mere sharing of words, and in many cases HARDLY a matter of speaking; the real statements are made by one's actions (and the condition of the heart behind the actions). It amazes me how difficult some believers are toward others, when they miss their own obvious flaws so readily (human beings TEND to do that, yet some have never caught on to that reality).

It seems rather clear by scriptures of the Christians that a confession before men is necessary to be a Christain.

So, you think that a mere relating of some 'words' is all it takes to accomplish as true profession of faith for Christ? (I hope not.)

Since you are rejecting "conventions" the "conventions" have rejected you. You are no more a Christian, until you confess him as such.

If you were INSIDE of my relationship with Jesus Christ, you could probably judge me 'right'; but you are outside of it. I can invite you in for a visit sometime, but for now I see good reason to leave you gently at the door.

I've been around long enough to accept, that my joy/pain and successes in Jesus cannot be held hostage by the approval or disapproval of fellow seekers of Christ. Not that I'm right about everything I think/believe and they are wrong, but that we are ALL HUMAN BEINGS; none are perfect or always does right.

The best we can do, is just that... and it takes a lot of grace even to try.

[Columcille]

So, you think that a mere relating of some 'words' is all it takes to accomplish as true profession of faith for Christ? (I hope not.)



If you were INSIDE of my relationship with Jesus Christ, you could probably judge me 'right'; but you are outside of it. I can invite you in for a visit sometime, but for now I see good reason to leave you gently at the door.

I've been around long enough to accept, that my joy/pain and successes in Jesus cannot be held hostage by the approval or disapproval of fellow seekers of Christ. Not that I'm right about everything I think/believe and they are wrong, but that we are ALL HUMAN BEINGS; none are perfect or always does right.

The best we can do, is just that... and it takes a lot of grace even to try.

What it should mean for you, if you do confess Jesus as Lord, is drawn from knowing him from the Scriptures. We would have a common denominator from which dialogue is possible. I am not asking the quality of that relationship, only your confession.

[MacG]

Many have be 'indoctrinated' to believe that a person who is homosexual is 'evil' (just for possessing a homosexual-orientation); I think there is something very wrong about that.

I think that in fact, the problems surrounding and stemming from "heterosexuality" are of a sufficient magnitude, that barbaric laws such as those in Uganda represent borderline insanity.

I do not think that the "many indoctrinated" have been indoctrinated by Exodus. The question remains what are they culpable for?

Blessings,

MacG

[Austin Canes]

I do not think that the "many indoctrinated" have been indoctrinated by Exodus. The question remains what are they culpable for?

Blessings,

MacG

I suppose many could go after "Exodus", but the issue to me is far-larger than the organization which that name represents.

For me, it is as simple as observing the way people actually speak of and treat homosexuals. That includes Exodus, but it is not exclusive to that organization.