Challenged to show at least one prophecy that has come true.

[Richard]

In 1834, with Church membership near four thousand, Joseph Smith told a small gathering of priesthood brethren:

"I want to say to you before the Lord, that you know no more concerning the destinies of this church and kingdom than a babe upon its mother’s lap. You don’t comprehend it. It is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight, but this church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world."

The tiny seed planted in upstate New York has now spread to more than 160 countries. How has that happened? Truth and righteousness are sweeping the earth in three phases. The first is missionary work, which introduces the gospel. Where success occurs, small branches are formed with limited priesthood keys. As the Church grows in an area, branches become wards, which then become stakes. Stakes represent the second phase. Stakes are centers of strength and denote additional priesthood keys. The presence of a stake indicates that the gospel has taken root and a mature membership exists. Temples represent the third phase. The placement of a temple in an area signifies the presence of a number of stakes within close proximity and a spiritual maturity worthy of higher ordinances and covenants. It is instructive to briefly review the historical progress of these three manifestations of the "stone cut out of the mountain without hands" which, as Joseph said, will fill North and South America and eventually the whole earth (Daniel 2:34–35, 44–45).

2000

Today, there are 333 missions. The fall of the Berlin Wall opened Eastern Europe to missionary work. Today, there are missions across Russia from St. Petersburg in the west to Vladivostok in the east. Philippine missions continue to divide with new missions being formed. The density of missions in North, Central, and South America continues to increase. The number of African missions is also on the rise.

The Growth of Stakes across the World, 1830–2000

Given the pattern of growth in missions, the fruits of missionary work appear in the formation of stakes in fulfillment of Joseph Smith’s prophecy.


Now, Check back with us in another 20 years all you doubters and we can discuss the growth of, "THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHIRST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, some more.

Regards, Richard.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Richard

In 1834, with Church membership near four thousand, Joseph Smith told a small gathering of priesthood brethren:

"I want to say to you before the Lord, that you know no more concerning the destinies of this church and kingdom than a babe upon its mother’s lap. You don’t comprehend it. It is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight, but this church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world."

The tiny seed planted in upstate New York has now spread to more than 160 countries. How has that happened? Truth and righteousness are sweeping the earth in three phases. The first is missionary work, which introduces the gospel. Where success occurs, small branches are formed with limited priesthood keys. As the Church grows in an area, branches become wards, which then become stakes. Stakes represent the second phase. Stakes are centers of strength and denote additional priesthood keys. The presence of a stake indicates that the gospel has taken root and a mature membership exists. Temples represent the third phase. The placement of a temple in an area signifies the presence of a number of stakes within close proximity and a spiritual maturity worthy of higher ordinances and covenants. It is instructive to briefly review the historical progress of these three manifestations of the "stone cut out of the mountain without hands" which, as Joseph said, will fill North and South America and eventually the whole earth (Daniel 2:34–35, 44–45).

2000

Today, there are 333 missions. The fall of the Berlin Wall opened Eastern Europe to missionary work. Today, there are missions across Russia from St. Petersburg in the west to Vladivostok in the east. Philippine missions continue to divide with new missions being formed. The density of missions in North, Central, and South America continues to increase. The number of African missions is also on the rise.

The Growth of Stakes across the World, 1830–2000

Given the pattern of growth in missions, the fruits of missionary work appear in the formation of stakes in fulfillment of Joseph Smith’s prophecy.


Now, Check back with us in another 20 years all you doubters and we can discuss the growth of, "THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHIRST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, some more.

Regards, Richard.

Sorry, Richard. This won't work for BrianH. It's not fool proof either.

This is a Millennial prophecy, (IMO), and even if during the Millennium North and South America (and the world) become filled with LDS members Brian could still claim that Joseph's prophecy meant that every human on the planet needed to be LDS for the prophecy to be correctly fulfilled.

And that actually won't happen until after the millennium, (as I see it). So, he would have to wait until then to be convinced.

I'm afraid only Brian can come up with the perfect prophecy that would make him a Mormon for sure.

[BrianH]

Is that supposed to be a "prophecy" in the first place???

-BH

.

[Mesenja]

Joseph Smith said that "...this church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world." He spoke that their would be a future event involving the church and this was fulfilled.

[Sara]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Joseph Smith said that "...this church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world." He spoke that their would be a future event involving the church and this was fulfilled.

It hasn't "filled" anything. The percentage of mormons in the world is miniscule.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Sara

It hasn't "filled" anything. The percentage of mormons in the world is miniscule.

Sara, the prophesy did not mention numbers, only that the Restored Gospel of Christ would flood the earth, first published in 1830, the Book of Mormon has been continuously in print since then, for over 170 years. It has been translated into dozens of foreign languages. Millions of people have read it, many receiving free copies from Mormon missionaries - has a full-time missionary corps of over 60,000. Many of those investigating have accepted its claims and joined our Church, or Christ Church.

So instead of being just another cult as some claim, the Church has thrived, expanded, and taken the Gospel to many foreign countries, while all the time filling both north and south America with meetinghouses and temples.

r.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Richard

Sara, the prophesy did not mention numbers, only that the Restored Gospel of Christ would flood the earth, first published in 1830, the Book of Mormon has been continuously in print since then, for over 170 years. It has been translated into dozens of foreign languages. Millions of people have read it, many receiving free copies from Mormon missionaries - has a full-time missionary corps of over 60,000. Many of those investigating have accepted its claims and joined our Church, or Christ Church.

So instead of being just another cult as some claim, the Church has thrived, expanded, and taken the Gospel to many foreign countries, while all the time filling both north and south America with meetinghouses and temples.

r.

Didn't I predict this very objection, Richard? LOL!

That's scary when you start thinking like the critics do.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Didn't I predict this very objection, Richard? LOL!

That's scary when you start thinking like the critics do.

Your scary good buddy, a future prophet in the making. Don't you just love the frustration you see with Evangelicals who want so badly for Mormons to just go away, but what they do not expect is for a growing and thriving Church, that has put into place Gospel principles even from the Bible, such as ***hing that makes all of this possible, interesting they cannot claim the same.

r.

[BrianH]

It sounds like a prediction based on the usual patterns of growth for human movements. MANY movements -religious, political, economic, philosophical, scientific, etc. have made similar predictions and then fulfilled them. Are THEY all led by "prophets" too?

Can you show me where SMITH said it was a prophecy? I can't find that part. Maybe you can.

-BH

.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Richard

Your scary good buddy, a future prophet in the making. Don't you just love the frustration you see with Evangelicals who want so badly for Mormons to just go away, but what they do not expect is for a growing and thriving Church, that has put into place Gospel principles even from the Bible, such as ***hing that makes all of this possible, interesting they cannot claim the same.

r.

Yea. I'm still waiting for Brian to present the ideal scenario or ideal prophecy that would make a Mormon out of him.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Yea. I'm still waiting for Brian to present the ideal scenario or ideal prophecy that would make a Mormon out of him.

Never going to happen, how can one even begin to be converted when he hasn't even read completely any of our Standard works, never read all of Joseph's prophesies, and thinks the Fragments in our possession are the Book of Abraham. His problem will always be his blundering along using borrowed talking points that originate from others, and allows them to be his guide on what is true or false, a very sorry situation.

r.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Richard

Never going to happen, how can one even begin to be converted when he hasn't even read completely any of our Standard works, never read all of Joseph's prophesies, and thinks the Fragments in our possession are the Book of Abraham. His problem will always be his blundering along using borrowed talking points that originate from others, and allows them to be his guide on what is true or false, a very sorry situation.

r.

I'm still challenging him to provide one. If he can't then it shows the dis-ingenuous nature of his opposition.

It's kind of a challenge for him to think for himself, instead of relying on the talking points of the scholars he limits his reading to.

[Mesenja]

Wilford Woodruff said that Joseph Smith asked the local priesthood holders in the vicinity of Kirtland,Ohio to gather in a tiny 14 foot square log schoolhouse and challenged them to testify of the church and it's future. Responding to their ineffective attempts to see the future of the church and it's growth he gave this prophecy.

"I want to say to you before the Lord,that you know no more concerning the destinies of this church and kingdom than a babe upon its mother’s lap. You don’t comprehend it. It is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight,but this church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world."

A prophecy is the prediction of future events and the disclosing of information that can not be known to the prophet by any ordinary means. It is utterly preposterous for you to say that Joseph Smith based his prediction on known "patterns of growth for human movements." Besides you do not have any basis in statistical data to support your claims that this is simply the inevitable result of the known "patterns of growth" and that other such movements "have made similar predictions and then fulfilled them." This is showing signs of desperation Brian.

Originally Posted by BrianH

It sounds like a prediction based on the usual patterns of growth for human movements. MANY movements-religious,political,economic,philosophical,scienti fic, etc. have made similar predictions and then fulfilled them. Are THEY all led by "prophets" too? Can you show me where SMITH said it was a prophecy? I can't find that part. Maybe you can. -BH.

Not only would it be impossible for Joseph Smith to base his prediction on the "usual patterns of growth for human movements" but he prefaced his statement by saying the words "I want to say to you before the Lord." In effect by this statement he is saying that as God is my witness what I have said will come to p***. Now is not this a prophecy Brian?

Besides where would Joseph Smith get this information from Brian? Also Joseph Smith did not have to announce to everyone before every prophetic statement he uttered that he was now making a prophecy.

Not happy with the prophecy of Joseph Smith that Richard provided you? How about his prophecy that the Saints were to flourish in the Rocky Mountains?

D&C 49:25
25 Zion shall flourish upon the hills and rejoice upon the mountains,and shall be ***embled together unto the place which I have appointed.

On the 6th of August,1842,with quite a number of his brethren,he [Joseph Smith] crossed the Mississippi river to the town of Montrose,to be present at the installation of the Masonic Lodge of the Rising Sun. A block schoolhouse had been prepared with shade in front,under which was a barrel of ice water,Judge James Adams was the highest Masonic authority in the state of Illinois,and had been sent there to organize this lodge. He and Hyrum Smith,being high Masons,went into the house to perform some ceremonies which the others were not en***led to witness. These,including Joseph Smith,remained under the bowery. Joseph, as he was tasting the cold water,warned the brethren not to be too free with it. With the tumbler still in his hand he prophesied that the saints would yet go to the Rocky Mountains;and,said he,this water tastes much like that of the crystal streams that are running from the snow-capped mountains. We will let Mr. Call describe this prophetic scene:'I had before seen him in a vision,and now saw while he was talking his countenance change to white;not the deadly white of a bloodless face,but a living,brilliant white. He seemed absorbed in gazing at something at a great distance, and said:'I am gazing upon the valleys of those mountains.'This was followed by a vivid description of the scenery of these mountains,as I have since become acquainted with it. Pointing to Shadrach Roundy and others,he said:'There are some men here who shall do a great work in that land.' Pointing to me,he said: 'There is Anson,he shall go and shall ***ist in building up cities from one end of the country to the other;and you, rather extending the idea to all those he had spoken of, shall perform as great a work as has been done by man,so that the nations of the earth shall be astonished,and many of them will be gathered in that land and ***ist in building cities and temples,and Israel shall be made to rejoice. [B. H. Roberts,Comprehensive History of the Church,Vol. 2,Ch. 51,pp.181-182]

[BrianH]

Not all "predictions" are prophecies, Mes. I predicted that the Braves would trade out Francour before the season was over and it "came to p***" just like I said. Does that make ME a "prophet"? Why or why not?

If you do not understand the difference between a prediction and a prophecy, just ask and I will happily explain the difference for you.

Now ...can you tell me from the words themselves, why this should be considered a 'prophecy' to begin with?

-BH

.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Not all "predictions" are prophecies,Mesenja. I predicted that the Braves would trade out Francour before the season was over and it "came to p***" just like I said. Does that make ME a "prophet"? Why or why not?

If you do not understand the difference between a prediction and a prophecy, just ask and I will happily explain the difference for you.

Now ...can you tell me from the words themselves,why this should be considered a 'prophecy' to begin with?

-Brian_H.

Please read my previous post again.

[Mesenja]

Joseph Smith prophesied that within five years the church would be out of the power of their old enemies. Concerning a meeting held in Nauvoo in February 25th,1844 he wrote the following.

I gave some important instructions,and prophesied that within five years we should be out of the power of our old enemies,whether they were apostates of of the world;and told the brethren to record it,that when it comes to p***,they need not say they had forgotten the saying. [History of the Church ,Vol. 6,p. 225]

By 1849,the Saints were gathered in Utah (the first wave entered the Salt Lake area in July of 1847.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Joseph Smith prophesied that within five years the church would be out of the power of their old enemies. Concerning a meeting held in Nauvoo in February 25th,1844 he wrote the following.



By 1849,the Saints were gathered in Utah (the first wave entered the Salt Lake area in July of 1847.

Hmmm, that makes two now Brian.

R.

[Mesenja]

I provided Brian with the example of Joseph Smith prophesying that the Saints were to flourish in the Rocky Mountains.

Originally Posted by Richard

Hmmm, that makes two now Brian.

Richard

I think that dealing with three fulfilled prophecies by Joseph Smith is enough for Brian to deal with at the moment don't you agree?

D&C 49:25

25 Zion shall flourish upon the hills and rejoice upon the mountains,and shall be ***embled together unto the place which I have appointed.

On the 6th of August,1842,with quite a number of his brethren,he [Joseph Smith] crossed the Mississippi river to the town of Montrose,to be present at the installation of the Masonic Lodge of the Rising Sun. A block schoolhouse had been prepared with shade in front,under which was a barrel of ice water,Judge James Adams was the highest Masonic authority in the state of Illinois,and had been sent there to organize this lodge. He and Hyrum Smith,being high Masons,went into the house to perform some ceremonies which the others were not en***led to witness. These,including Joseph Smith,remained under the bowery. Joseph, as he was tasting the cold water,warned the brethren not to be too free with it. With the tumbler still in his hand he prophesied that the saints would yet go to the Rocky Mountains;and,said he,this water tastes much like that of the crystal streams that are running from the snow-capped mountains. We will let Mr. Call describe this prophetic scene:'I had before seen him in a vision,and now saw while he was talking his countenance change to white;not the deadly white of a bloodless face,but a living,brilliant white. He seemed absorbed in gazing at something at a great distance, and said:'I am gazing upon the valleys of those mountains.'This was followed by a vivid description of the scenery of these mountains,as I have since become acquainted with it. Pointing to Shadrach Roundy and others,he said:'There are some men here who shall do a great work in that land.' Pointing to me,he said: 'There is Anson,he shall go and shall ***ist in building up cities from one end of the country to the other;and you, rather extending the idea to all those he had spoken of, shall perform as great a work as has been done by man,so that the nations of the earth shall be astonished,and many of them will be gathered in that land and ***ist in building cities and temples,and Israel shall be made to rejoice. [B. H. Roberts,Comprehensive History of the Church,Vol. 2,Ch. 51,pp.181-182]

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

I provided Brian with the example of Joseph Smith prophesying that the Saints were to flourish in the Rocky Mountains.



I think that dealing with three fulfilled prophecies by Joseph Smith is enough for Brian to deal with at the moment don't you agree?

Mesenja, if Joseph was alive and Brian was to meet him, and he prophesied that tomorrow, Brian would accept the Book of Mormon and would receive conformation it was true, Brian would do all in his power to be sure he was not anywhere near a Book of Mormon or even dare read it.

r.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Mesenja

Joseph Smith prophesied that within five years the church would be out of the power of their old enemies. Concerning a meeting held in Nauvoo in February 25th,1844 he wrote the following.



By 1849,the Saints were gathered in Utah (the first wave entered the Salt Lake area in July of 1847.

I don't think this is a fool-proof prophecy for Brian, either. Because the definition of flourish would necessarily mean, for Brian, that we don't have any poverty or social problems to deal with in the valley any longer.

So this one wouldn't work for him.

That's why I'm asking Brian to come up with the absolute convincer that would make a Mormon outta him for sure.

[BrianH]

But your "explanation" is lacking. At this point we have no reason to think that even Smith thought this was a prophetic revelation.

Where, in this alleged "prophecy", did Smith say that he speaking for God?

-BH

.

[Mesenja]

Originally Posted by BrianH

But your "explanation" is lacking. At this point we have no reason to think that even Smith thought this was a prophetic revelation. Where, in this alleged "prophecy",did Smith say that he speaking for God? -Brian_H.

Yes we've reason to think that in his role of prophet he was acting as such at the time. He gave these inspired words concerning the future of the church.

"It is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight,but this church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world."

He gave a prediction of future events and disclosed information that can not have bern known to the prophet by any ordinary means

He prefaced his statement by saying the words "I want to say to you before the Lord." In effect by this statement he is saying that as God is my witness what I have said will come to p***.

[BrianH]

Your re****al is found lacking

Your opinion is insufficient as support for itself.

Yes we've reason to think that in his role of prophet he was acting as such at the time. He gave these inspired words concerning the future of the church.

What makes that a prophecy?

He gave a prediction of future events and disclosed of information that can not have bern known to the prophet by any ordinary means

Such as...?

He prefaced his statement by saying the words "I want to say to you before the Lord." In effect by this statement he is saying that as God is my witness what I have said will come to p***.

So it was SMITH saying this, and NOT God, right?

-BH

.

[gripper]

What is the official church position on this subject? Has any general authority stated that they (personal opinion) or the official Church opinion is that this prophecy has been fulfilled?

[Mesenja]

A prophecy is the prediction of future events and the disclosing of information that can not be known to the prophet by any ordinary means. He also prefaced his statement by saying the words "I want to say to you before the Lord" in effect saying that as God is my witness what I have said will come to p***. His words were inspired and while this alone can not qualify him to be a prophet it is still considered to fall under the realm of prophecy.