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Thread: Begging for response.

  1. #51
    GiGi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    You certainly will, if you were to desire cleaning the mirror of your soul. But if want to be awed at the afterlife, it might not be a very desirable outcome. But like I said, its your gamble, not mine.
    One more thing. If real evidence were presented, I'd worship god. I'd do it without any expectation of reward or fear of punishment. Pascal can kiss my foot!

  2. #52
    Columcille
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    I am sure you have already heard the arguments from teleology, cosmology, moral, perhaps as fun the ontological, and maybe even "the humble argument." All such evidences you have ignored as a whole. It does you no good to argue with me or on this website, if you refuse to drink from the water. I am sure you have been dragged enough to the waterhole, but it is not my duty now.

  3. #53
    GiGi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    I am sure you have already heard the arguments from teleology, cosmology, moral, perhaps as fun the ontological, and maybe even "the humble argument." All such evidences you have ignored as a whole. It does you no good to argue with me or on this website, if you refuse to drink from the water. I am sure you have been dragged enough to the waterhole, but it is not my duty now.
    I've heard/read the arguments. None answers the questions I've presented to you over the last few days. None are evidence, just what-if scenerios, and theories based solely on the imagination of the author.
    You believe because you want to. Is that about it?

  4. #54
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiGi View Post
    I've heard/read the arguments. None answers the questions I've presented to you over the last few days. None are evidence, just what-if scenerios, and theories based solely on the imagination of the author.
    You believe because you want to. Is that about it?
    I figured as much. I am compelled to believe in those arguments when they are combined. Alternative views for God's (or gods) non-existence tends to be a negation of the above arguments and from the abductive approach of curiousity and awe of the world from a child, I believe some people "grow up" to loose such awe by their mentors and by their lusts (wether it be the error of spirituality like the Stoics--where temptations are within the soul, pride, dispair, and distrust as opposites of the theological virtues--or of the Epicureans who followed the whims of fleshly desire).

  5. #55
    GiGi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    I figured as much. I am compelled to believe in those arguments when they are combined. Alternative views for God's (or gods) non-existence tends to be a negation of the above arguments and from the abductive approach of curiousity and awe of the world from a child, I believe some people "grow up" to loose such awe by their mentors and by their lusts (wether it be the error of spirituality like the Stoics--where temptations are within the soul, pride, dispair, and distrust as opposites of the theological virtues--or of the Epicureans who followed the whims of fleshly desire).
    I am careful never to say, 'there is no god'. I prefer that the burden of proof remain with the christian (or whatever), which is where it belongs.
    By putting all the theories together, the sum is still equal to its parts. Mix it anyway you want to, but without evidence its just wishful thinking.

  6. #56
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiGi View Post
    I am careful never to say, 'there is no god'. I prefer that the burden of proof remain with the christian (or whatever), which is where it belongs.
    By putting all the theories together, the sum is still equal to its parts. Mix it anyway you want to, but without evidence its just wishful thinking.
    Your argument does not compell me. I see causality every day, and in thinking of infinite regression of causality, I have many options to pick from. Regardless if nature is cyclic, temporal, or what have you, the mystery of life, the mystery of the universe is simply greater than your own postulating. You have a closed universe of "evidence" where you cannot see past the obvious to the mysterious.

  7. #57
    GiGi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    Your argument does not compell me. I see causality every day, and in thinking of infinite regression of causality, I have many options to pick from. Regardless if nature is cyclic, temporal, or what have you, the mystery of life, the mystery of the universe is simply greater than your own postulating. You have a closed universe of "evidence" where you cannot see past the obvious to the mysterious.
    I don't want to compel you to do anything except show me that your god exists; not because somebody said so, not because you can't think of another explanation, and not because you really, really, really wish it to be, but because its true.
    The mystery of the universe is indeed great, and much more deserving of exploration than a simple 'goddidit'.

  8. #58
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiGi View Post
    I don't want to compel you to do anything except show me that your god exists; not because somebody said so, not because you can't think of another explanation, and not because you really, really, really wish it to be, but because its true.
    The mystery of the universe is indeed great, and much more deserving of exploration than a simple 'goddidit'.
    As an upper grade elementary student I could not but help to look at the expanse of the stars and be amazed not only to what I saw, but the very fact that I could. I realized early on that I was my own person, that I just did not create myself. That my circumstances of my own existence could have very well landed me in another culture or another time, and that we are all alike. Thoughts on leading a good life were idealistic, but I was just floating through whatever the circumstances my corner of the world just happened to experience. If you didn't have such thoughts, I must deduce the worst. I am sorry. It is not my duty to clean the mirror of your soul, if you don't accept God, it is not my duty to save you. His imprint is seen in his creation. Call it an abduction, call it an epiphany, call it what you want... You have enough before you, without me even going to read the existence of God p***ages of Aquinas in his Summa Theologica or Summa Contra Gentiles, or St. Anslem's works, or even of St. Bonaventura. You can ask what I believe and why I believe it, but I cannot do the work of the Holy Spirit in cooperation with your own soul.

  9. #59
    GiGi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    As an upper grade elementary student I could not but help to look at the expanse of the stars and be amazed not only to what I saw, but the very fact that I could. I realized early on that I was my own person, that I just did not create myself. That my circumstances of my own existence could have very well landed me in another culture or another time, and that we are all alike. Thoughts on leading a good life were idealistic, but I was just floating through whatever the circumstances my corner of the world just happened to experience. If you didn't have such thoughts, I must deduce the worst. I am sorry. It is not my duty to clean the mirror of your soul, if you don't accept God, it is not my duty to save you. His imprint is seen in his creation. Call it an abduction, call it an epiphany, call it what you want... You have enough before you, without me even going to read the existence of God p***ages of Aquinas in his Summa Theologica or Summa Contra Gentiles, or St. Anslem's works, or even of St. Bonaventura. You can ask what I believe and why I believe it, but I cannot do the work of the Holy Spirit in cooperation with your own soul.
    At 10, you realized that you didn't create yourself, you are fortunate to live in a free country, the sky is big, and people are all pretty much the same. Oh, and more suggested reading.
    I think we are through here. Thanks.

  10. #60
    Columcille
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    You are right, I think we are through. As far as my suggested readings, since most are translated from Latin, they tend to be a little more difficult to read. But in truth, I think the principles that they espouse run similiar to what my own natural thoughts inquired regarding my purposefulness, my honoring of, though not necessarily my practice of, virtue. To tell you the truth, I almost ditched Christianity for Buddhism when I was in the Marine Corps. Two things prevented me... Clive Staples Lewis' "Mere Christianity" and also a friend's living example, though we lost contact during that time. My rationale to almost ditch Christianity was that its idealism was too perfect to attain holiness. If it was just only one of them, Lewis's logic or the practical example of my friend, I would have ditched Christ and denied him. If by logic alone, its perfection is unattainable. If by the example of my friend alone, it sensibility would be no different than the moral righteousness of the Thai Buddhist monks I observed. The thing is, you have to connect the dots of all the evidences combined, instead of focusing on one dot and isolating it. You cannot get the big picture if you are too close to the subject to realize that you are yourself a part of the picture.

  11. #61
    asdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdf View Post
    Nah, the stakes are highest with Cthulhu.

  12. #62
    TRiG
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiGi View Post
    Rest ***ured, I will be appropriately awed when I see the evidence.
    Can't rep this (yet).

  13. #63
    TRiG
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdf View Post
    Nor this.

    Must find other intelligent people to give rep points to.

    TRiG.
    Last edited by TRiG; 09-17-2009 at 02:05 PM. Reason: I'd left my signature out.

  14. #64
    GiGi
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRiG View Post
    Nor this.

    Must find other intelligent people to give rep points to.

    TRiG.
    I haven't figured out how that works either.

  15. #65
    alanmolstad
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    my parents saw this in the Anglican church first-hand.
    The leadership of the church said that in order to increase membership many old fashion ideas would be updated...one of these ideas was to allow gays to be fully members of the church.

    it did not happen all at once, but that was the plan from the beginning....

    "You bring in gays, you allow gays to be fully part of the church, and the membership of the church goes up"


    So now in many Anglican churches you can be openly gay and be in leadership.





    and the result?.....the church is dieing....membership is dropping like a stone.....

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