Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I can't find the law of the gospel pre Moses, can you show me all the laws that predates Moses?

Start with the law given to Adam and work from there and see how many times God teaches His people and tells them what to do. Read the gospel of Jesus Christ to mean---Jesus Christ leading His people and telling them what to do. Read those who belong to the gospel of Jesus Christ to mean, those who listen to Jesus Christ and do what He says.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Start with the law given to Adam and work from there and see how many times God teaches His people and tells them what to do. Read the gospel of Jesus Christ to mean---Jesus Christ leading His people and telling them what to do. Read those who belong to the gospel of Jesus Christ to mean, those who listen to Jesus Christ and do what He says.

I don' see the guys pre Moses having the law of the gospel with ***ociated ordinances. It is just not there. Feel free to believe this but I can't.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Read those who belong to the gospel of Jesus Christ to mean, those who listen to Jesus Christ and do what He says.

the gospel means good news. That Jesus came, he died, and was raised on the third day. And by faith in him we will be saved. That is what Abraham was taught and everyone who is saved it is by faith.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

the gospel means good news. That Jesus came, he died, and was raised on the third day. And by faith in him we will be saved. That is what Abraham was taught and everyone who is saved it is by faith.

Billyray--it is not faith that saves us--it is His grace.

No one argues that we are saved by grace through faith. The question at hand is what makes you believe that this "faith" is devoid of obedience to Jesus Christ, when speaking of salvation?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

the gospel means good news. That Jesus came, he died, and was raised on the third day. And by faith in him we will be saved. That is what Abraham was taught and everyone who is saved it is by faith.

Yes, then since we know the "gospel" or good knews was preached to Abraham and sons:

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Therefore, Abraham knew of this good news and that it would come through "his seed" and this was the promise that was p***ed from Abraham to Isaac and from Isaac to Jacob and from Jacob to Judah and so on.

Good---so, you know that Abraham was taught "THE GOSPEL" and we also know that this "GOSPEL" was given via covenant also known as the law. In fact, when Abraham gave Isaac a blessing, he acted for in behalf of God (also known as the priesthood) to bestow this promise/law/covenant to his son.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Therefore, Abraham knew of this good news and that it would come through "his seed" and this was the promise that was p***ed from Abraham to Isaac and from Isaac to Jacob and from Jacob to Judah and so on.

Sure that there would be a savior that would come through his seed. People in both the OT and the NT are saved by faith and this is only possible with the gospel i.e. that a savior would come to die for our sins and that by placing our faith in him we will be saved.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sure that there would be a savior that would come through his seed. People in both the OT and the NT are saved by faith and this is only possible with the gospel i.e. that a savior would come to die for our sins and that by placing our faith in him we will be saved.

So, back to your original stipulation:

Originally Posted by Billyray
Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there NO law IN the world?

You believe that they were under the law of the gospel from Adam to Moses, which would include baptism, laying on of hand for the gift of the Holy Ghost, Melchizedek priesthood and all the other ordinances. Where do you find all of these things pre Moses?

Since you obviously understand the promise made to Abraham, then you obviously understand that this promise was made via a covenant also known as a law. This is just one example of the gospel existing (also known as the law) prior to Moses.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Good---so, you know that Abraham was taught "THE GOSPEL"

The gospel in the sense that there would be a savior that would come through his seed and that by faith you can be saved. But not using the LDS definition of the gospel.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Since you obviously understand the promise made to Abraham, then you obviously understand that this promise was made via a covenant also known as a law.

What we are arguing about is whether or not they were under the law of the gospel that you believe that they were under. You say they were and I say they were not. And thus far you have failed to show me any evidence that this is the case. Are there verses that you have that you are not showing me?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The gospel in the sense that there would be a savior that would come through his seed and that by faith you can be saved. But not using the LDS definition of the gospel.

Originally Posted by Billyray
That is not what this is speaking about. There was no law pre Moses.

You are changing the subject here. You were trying to base Romans 5 on the fact that to you, there was "no law pre Moses"---which you have clearly now acknowledged was not the case.

So, your arguments as to why you believe Romans 5 to read the way you do, you have just undone.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, your arguments as to why you believe Romans 5 to read the way you do, you have just undone.

Not undone at all BigJ. Can you show me what laws they were under?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You were trying to base Romans 5 on the fact that to you, there was "no law pre Moses"---which you have clearly now acknowledged was not the case.

BigJ I am not trying to take Romans 5 and make it fit into the OT. I am taking the OT and telling you that what you believe is wrong. There is no similarity to what you believe took place and what the Bible teaches.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Not undone at all BigJ. Can you show me what laws they were under?

Wow--only you can argue that the gospel existed during the time of Abraham and also argue that Abraham and company had no laws as such. Riiiggghhht!

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Wow--only you can argue that the gospel existed during the time of Abraham and also argue that Abraham and company had no laws as such. Riiiggghhht!

Because your definition of the gospel is different than my definition of the gospel.

Now can you show me what laws they were under?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because your definition of the gospel is different than my definition of the gospel.

Now can you show me what laws they were under?

Whatever laws they were under--the command to obedience to them were the same:

Genesis26:4-5--"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Whatever laws they were under--the command to obedience to them were the same:

Can you show me what laws and ordinances were required pre Moses?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Whatever laws they were under--

Which were exactly?

[dberrie2000]

Whatever laws they were under--the command to obedience to them were the same:

Genesis26:4-5--"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you show me what laws and ordinances were required pre Moses?

What difference would it make? The point is--your argument is brought to nil by the fact that Abraham lived under the law of Christ, and was given His grace due to Abraham's obedience to that law.

Your rant to see them written down is nothing but diversion from the fact you got trumped.

If we could show you those ordinances--you would just deny them, as you do those we show you in the NT:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Something the faith alone deny is even true for salvation.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because your definition of the gospel is different than my definition of the gospel.

Now can you show me what laws they were under?

It doesn't matter if my definition of the gospel is different than your definition of the gospel--the point was, Abraham and children had the gospel and thereby had a law(s) as the law in Hebrew is just another way to say commandments or covenants, which clearly, Abraham had received a covenant from the Lord and clearly used His authority to authorize that covenant in others.

So, your ***umption that there was no law pre-Moses is clearly faulty.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

It doesn't matter if my definition of the gospel is different than your definition of the gospel--the point was, Abraham and children had the gospel and thereby had a law(s) as the law in Hebrew is just another way to say commandments or covenants, which clearly, Abraham had received a covenant from the Lord and clearly used His authority to authorize that covenant in others.

So, your ***umption that there was no law pre-Moses is clearly faulty.

Exactly! But then--Billy has a diversion that can detract from that reality.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Exactly! But then--Billy has a diversion that can detract from that reality.

What laws were given and what ordinances were required pre Moses?

[BigJulie]

Dberrie--you know that Billyray no longer has a case when he begins to repeat his questions. You will see that happen often in this forum.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

It doesn't matter if my definition of the gospel is different than your definition of the gospel--

Sure it does because they were not under the gospel as you define gospel?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Dberrie--you know that Billyray no longer has a case when he begins to repeat his questions. You will see that happen often in this forum.

Yup. I'm now figuring that out. When he starts his circling patterns--that means he has been cornered.

Such as his obsession with what ordinances Abraham had--as if that made one hill of potatoes difference. He was wrong, and got burned.

But, maybe another circle will solve all that.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Dberrie--you know that Billyray no longer has a case when he begins to repeat his questions. You will see that happen often in this forum.

I have successfully found that there is an antidote to such foolishness....