Good, Evil, and Common Ground

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Okay--I will let you discuss this with others as I can't use well known Mormons .....

well, you should feel able to use well known Mormons all you want.
I just suggest you try to not point to guys who are in office or running for office as I tend to not want to listen to such name dropping in a religious context.

But let me introduce the idea I was talking about again, so you can take a fresh run at your answer.


------------------------

One of the things that I hate the most about most CULTS is that there is a fear of disagreement among the average member of the CULT to be discovered in disagreement with the CULT's teachings, or in disagreement with the CULT leadership.

What happens is that a conversation goes on and a member of a CULT is asked a question and based on their answer they suddenly clam-up when they discover that their answer is against some sort of CULT teaching or a statement of the CULT leader.

So they just stop talking because they dont want to get caught disagreeing with the leadership.
So rather than think for themselves and answer the question from their heart....they ask for more information on what the CULT leader said?

Then apon learning what the CULT leader said that twist their own answer to fit the official answer.

THAT is the point I think we Christians should understand.
That a member of a CULT is always living in fear of finding themselves accidently in opposition to the leadership and thereby have to switch their answers around to make it look better.

I will post to you a story to show you about the way this works in real life ...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

But would you have ketchup without God?

hmmmmmm........

"TOUCHE"

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

One of the things that I hate the most about most CULTS is that there is a fear of disagreement among the average member of the CULT to be discovered in disagreement with the CULT's teachings, or in disagreement with the CULT leadership.

Well, let me see if I can help you see inside the paradigm of the average mormon. We believe in revelation as well as things such as honoring your parents. You may wonder how these two things are related, but it has to do with how we view leadership and honoring those that God gives stewardship. As I explained to a friend of mine when he was discussing his religion and "voting" for what they wanted in their church--I explained that we believe in a theocracy and not a democracy when it comes to God. In other words, God speaks and it is not our priviledge to decide whether He is correct or not. So, what if a prophet is speaking? Do we automatically agree? As members, we are taught to pray about what the prophet is saying. We hopefully then get our own confirmation to the truthfullness of the prophets words. Do I pray over everything the prophet says? No--things like say your prayers, love others, etc. do not seem like things I need to pray about--they are a given that this is true. Other things may be a little harder to swallow and yes, I have taken things to prayer. One example might be the role of a mother and women--as we are taught that the primary role of women is that of a mother (if it makes you feel any better, the primary role of men is that of father.) But, I can and have received a definite confirmation that God wants my first priority to be that of a mother. By this guidance, I have put my children first and have never regretted it. My joy truly is in watching my children grow and succeed and to see my own daughter find the joy in motherhood.

What happens is that a conversation goes on and a member of a CULT is asked a question and based on their answer they suddenly clam-up when they discover that their answer is against some sort of CULT teaching or a statement of the CULT leader.

Maybe it is because they are still coming to understand their own beliefs. As I stated, we believe in a theocracy and not a democracy. As one leader in our church just got wildly criticized in the news for--we do not vote on whether a cat is a male or female (he was speaking of whether ****sexuality is okay or not--in other words, we don't vote on it to decide what God thinks.)

So they just stop talking because they dont want to get caught disagreeing with the leadership.
So rather than think for themselves and answer the question from their heart....they ask for more information on what the CULT leader said?

It is the same as you turning to the Bible to understand your beliefs--as you see the Bible as your standard, we likewise see the scriptures as well as the words of the living prophets as our standard.

Then apon learning what the CULT leader said that twist their own answer to fit the official answer.

I think you believe we do less thinking then we do. I have studied out and prayed about many things--it is just when I have received a witness regarding a prophet of God--when I have a hard time understanding, I see the fault with myself rather than the person who I have received a witness regarding his stewardship within the church.

THAT is the point I think we Christians should understand.
That a member of a CULT is always living in fear of finding themselves accidently in opposition to the leadership and thereby have to switch their answers around to make it look better.

I don't see myself living in fear at all. I think you mis-stereotype us when you believe that.

[bert10]

The understanding of the word "Elohim" would tell you how God created spiritual Sons and Daughters..where they come from and from whom they are made of.

By not understanding your roots in heaven...how can you understand yourself in this world?

This verse is literally true. And the Scriptures cannot be broken by false interpretation by the blind. GOD calls gods unto whom the word of God comes.

Psalms 82:6 - I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:34 - Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

John 10:35 - If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;


bert10

Originally Posted by B2M5L2

You're committing the same fallacy that all those in the cults do by imposing your beliefs upon Scripture, rather than letting Scripture guide your beliefs.

Otherwise, please show from the reference you've provided where it says that Satan was one of the sons of God. Secondly, please provide a specific reference that backs up your imposition which says, "All Angels (Messengers) are first Spiritual sons of God." Finally, when speaking of the angels as sons, just how do they become "sons." Is it because they're created by God, and the terminology is figurative, or is it that they became sons when God copulated with one of his wives and nine months later a "spirit child" was born, who then became a human, and then because he didn't obey the Mormon protocol, is now an angelic being? If the latter, can you show from Scripture where God is having Celestial sex with anyone, let alone some goddess he married on another earth, let alone even needs to, in order to bring a created being into existence? For some reason, I seriously doubt that you can, but I'm willing to entertain your perverse effort to even try.

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by bert10

John 10:34 - Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

John 10:35 - If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
[/COLOR]

bert10

Its very interesting that you ignore all the p***ages where GOD HIMSELF said there are NO OTHER GODS! God also said there are false gods, idols, man made gods of stone, wood, etc.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

LOL ...No. I said that evil is the privation of good. God cannot be altered at all, and least of all by satan.

Duh.



I have no obligation to explain a definition I never posted.

-BH

Isn't God the only source of good? Where you have good--you have God, and where you have God you have good, do you not? Or do you believe there are other sources of good than God?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Isn't God the only source of good? Where you have good--you have God, and where you have God you have good, do you not? Or do you believe there are other sources of good than God?

Umn..."good" is not a thing.

There is no such thing as "good" that we can grab and trace back to someone.

"Good" is a description of the nature of other things.

I dont think God actually made "good"
Rather I believe that God made many other real things that were described as being 'good".

mercy is good
love is good
forgiveness is good.
sunshine is good
walking in the woods is good.

Sometimes evil will get dressed up as good and try to convince us that it is good....
But with a little wisdom you will be able to notice that the goodness of some things is fake.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Umn..."good" is not a thing.

There is no such thing as "good" that we can grab and trace back to someone.

"Good" is a description of the nature of other things.

I dont think God actually made "good"
Rather I believe that God made many other real things that were described as being 'good".

mercy is good
love is good
forgiveness is good.
sunshine is good
walking in the woods is good.

Sometimes evil will get dressed up as good and try to convince us that it is good....
But with a little wisdom you will be able to notice that the goodness of some things is fake.

Still, isn't God the source of all good? Or are there other sources of good?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Still, isn't God the source of all good? Or are there other sources of good?

My guess is you would really have to define the context of how you want me to view the term 'good"

right now all the term means to me is that it describes other things....but is not actually a thing that is "made"

Therefore it would be hard for me to say that God made "good".....
On The Other Hand...
God did make lots of things in Genesis, and they are described as being "good".

Now would I say that God made all things that are good?
the answer to that is again to understand the context of how you want to understand the term.

[alanmolstad]

Perhaps we could replace the word "good" with a word that is way more closely connected to God, and that this would help me understand and answer your question.

"holy" is good.

God is Holy.
God alone in Holy in his nature.
All the rest of things that are called "holy" have a borrowed holiness to them.

Im holy, but only because Im a saved Christian and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
So its the implanted "holiness' of God that now is my own.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Perhaps we could replace the word "good" with a word that is way more closely connected to God, and that this would help me understand and answer your question.

"holy" is good.

God is Holy.
God alone in Holy in his nature.
All the rest of things that are called "holy" have a borrowed holiness to them.

Im holy, but only because Im a saved Christian and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
So its the implanted "holiness' of God that now is my own.

Luke 18:19
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

James 1:17
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Matthew 7:11
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

LDS scriptures also teach that there is only one source for good, and that is God. Not the devil. And I believe this completely.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Luke 18:19
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

.

well you have to define how you want to use the term I guess...

without a common context I dont have any idea how others are using the term.

Oh and by the way , Jesus is good...LOL

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well you have to define how you want to use the term I guess...

without a common context I dont have any idea how others are using the term.

Oh and by the way , Jesus is good...LOL

Then why did Christ say he wasn't?

Marvin

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well you have to define how you want to use the term I guess...

without a common context I dont have any idea how others are using the term.

Oh and by the way , Jesus is good...LOL

Do we really need to squabble about a definition of "good"?

To me, it is clear what "good" means, especially in the moral context of this thread.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Do we really need to squabble about a definition of "good"?

To me, it is clear what "good" means, especially in the moral context of this thread.

I would need to know what context a word is used in before I can answer a question on how it was used by others...
---------------------------------
an example:

Im Holy
Yet does not the Bible say "Holy, holy, holy art the Lord"?

Im Holy because Im saved and I am a member of the Kingdom as much as Paul is and as much as any Christians are , living or p***ed.

Im Holy not because I am that way in my nature, rather Im Holy because when i become a Christian the Holiness of Christ is credited to me....for only God is Holy in his nature....

Christians are Holy by Grace.

so God has made men Holy
and this is because God is Holy in his nature.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I would need to know what context a word is used in before I can answer a question on how it was used by others...
---------------------------------
an example:

Im Holy
Yet does not the Bible say "Holy, holy, holy art the Lord"?

Im Holy because Im saved and I am a member of the Kingdom as much as Paul is and as much as any Christians are , living or p***ed.

Im Holy not because I am that way in my nature, rather Im Holy because when i become a Christian the Holiness of Christ is credited to me....for only God is Holy in his nature....

Christians are Holy by Grace.

so God has made men Holy
and this is because God is Holy in his nature.

So you prefer not to use the word "good" in reference to God's nature? Instead you want to use the word "holy".

So, how does a person discern holy from unholy?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Then why did Christ say he wasn't?

Marvin

You better drop back and read what he actually said one more time.....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

So you prefer not to use the word "good" in reference to God's nature? Instead you want to use the word "holy".

well, there are many ways to understand the term "good"...but only one way to understand 'holy"

and we know that the term "holy" can only be used of God.
So it would seem a far better term to suggest you use as it might keep us both on the same page.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

So, how does a person discern holy from unholy?

That is a very good question to ask...

Let me think.......

I guess I would say that I would search the Bible to see what is holy and what is not.

[ErikErik]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Then why did Christ say he wasn't?

Marvin

You missed Jesus' point. He was trying to explain that no MAN is good. Yet the rich man called Jesus: good teacher. So Jesus was saying: You call me good. Do you realize what you are saying? If I am, indeed, good, as you say, then I am God. Are you willing to call me God?

This forces the rich man to draw one of two conclusions: either Jesus was not good, or He was God.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

Then why did Christ say he wasn't?

Marvin

never got back to me about this....

In the Text we never see Jesus say he was "not good"....

Rather in a conversation with people who were out to trip him up Jesus noticed that they called him "Good", and so Jesus turned this on them and asked them about why they would call him "good" if they knew only God was good?


The point Jesus was leading the guys to was that they were actually correct. Jesus was good, and only God is good....therefore even if the men did not understand what they were truly saying, they had found the truth , in the Jesus = God Almighty, and therefore "good"

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

never got back to me about this....

In the Text we never see Jesus say he was "not good"....

Rather in a conversation with people who were out to trip him up Jesus noticed that they called him "Good", and so Jesus turned this on them and asked them about why they would call him "good" if they knew only God was good?


The point Jesus was leading the guys to was that they were actually correct. Jesus was good, and only God is good....therefore even if the men did not understand what they were truly saying, they had found the truth , in the Jesus = God Almighty, and therefore "good"

He said..."there is none good but God that send-eth me" sorry about the dash my IPad kept correcting the old English.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

He said..."there is none good but God that send-eth me" sorry about the dash my IPad kept correcting the old English.

What is your reference for this? I have never seen it before.. I have seen this one:

Luke 18:19
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

I praise God you can still hold on to your faith in God. Sometimes that gets difficult when things aren't going good.. It doesn't matter if you believe me or not. I am a human being and I hate to see others in pain or trouble especially when it wasn't of their own making.. IHS jim

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by James Banta

What is your reference for this? I have never seen it before.. I have seen this one:

Luke 18:19
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

I praise God you can still hold on to your faith in God. Sometimes that gets difficult when things aren't going good.. It doesn't matter if you believe me or not. I am a human being and I hate to see others in pain or trouble especially when it wasn't of their own making.. IHS jim

Same meaning.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Same meaning.

The question still remains.. What was your reference? IHS jim