"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female"
Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!
"Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate"
"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female"
Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!
"Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate"
actually the different translations are in total 100% agreement....
I agree with all of them...
You asked if the bible actually does call being Gay a "Perversion"?, and I looked for a credible website that you could trust, in my effort to show you that the Bible does call being Gay a perversion.
All the wording in all the different translations listed all come to the same united concept that being gay is a very sinful, dirty, disgusting , perverted lifestyle, that will condemn a person's soul to an everlasting Hell fire.
This is not my idea...
I did not come up with this teaching....
Im only showing you what God wanted us to clearly understand so that we have the needed information to REPENT, and turn away from such perversions.
Blame God for what is and is not a sin, I didnt come up with HIS list.
And thats what we need to remember here...
This is God's list...
This is God's thoughts...
This is God's ideas...
God calls being gay a "perversion", and that's just a fact that i personally had nothing to do with..
Perhaps that's the case for an issue on which the Bible is silent because the issue did not exist at the time the Bible was written—vegetarianism, nuclear physics, drunk driving—but if you have an overwhelming consensus throughout both Testaments that an issue is acceptable, sometimes attributed to Godsown mouth—I have already talked about this:
We can not go to the Bible and say, "Where is your clear condemnation of driving a new car the wrong way of the freeway while drunk?"
and then believe that just because the Bible does not clearly address the particular situation with the same wording we would ask of it, that this must mean that the Bible actually "endorses" driving a car drunk the wrong direction.
—and the only thing you can point to arguing otherwise is a vague possible-suggestion that one particular slaveowner maybe-kinda-sorta-pretty-please ought to free one particular slave, as a personal favor to Paul this one particular time—
—it's rather dishonest to claim that "the context of the New Test is clearly that owning a slave is harmful and (...) that to be a good Christian a slave owner should allow his slaves to go free", don't you think?
No, it really doesn't. People speak; books don't.The bible speaks!
Right then. So you should be all for treating your slaves well, or if you're a slave yourself, submitting graciously to your owner without complaining.It's up to us to read, learn, and live by what we find in the Bible....
The truth is that the Bible is what it is, and we cant make demands of the wording to fit our questions, rather we have to conform our lives to the text as we have received it.
And refusing to answer my follow-up. I see exactly how the game is played.
Oh, very clever! I've never heard that pun before. That settles it then.
Do you have any reason to believe that Jesus was addressing same-sex unions in that p***age, rather than what he said he was addressing—opposite-sex divorces?
Except they're not. The vast majority of translators render πλάνης as "error", which is in line with how the word is used through the rest of the NT. And once again, whatever the "error" in question, it is given as the result of sin and idolatry, not presented as the sin itself—far less a "very sinful, dirty, disgusting, perverted lifestyle that will condemn a person's soul to an everlasting Hell fire". You're just making stuff up now.
Things missing from Paul, anywhere—that you are claiming (by repe***ion) to be there:All the wording in all the different translations listed all come to the same united concept that being gay is a very sinful, dirty, disgusting , perverted lifestyle, that will condemn a person's soul to an everlasting Hell fire.
This is not my idea...
I did not come up with this teaching....
"being gay"
"very sinful"
"dirty"
"disgusting"
"lifestyle"
"a person's soul"
"everlasting Hell fire"
If God had wanted us to clearly understand, why did God require your words to communicate God's "needed information"?Im only showing you what God wanted us to clearly understand so that we have the needed information to REPENT, and turn away from such perversions.
Perhaps if you knew some gay people, you would understand that reality testifies against your dogma.Blame God for what is and is not a sin, I didnt come up with HIS list.
And thats what we need to remember here...
This is God's list...
This is God's thoughts...
This is God's ideas...
God calls being gay a "perversion", and that's just a fact that i personally had nothing to do with..
The Bible says what it says. It's not Politically correct, but it's the Truth. It is what it is.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 tells us who will Not inherit the Kingdom of God.
* NIV - Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men.
* KJV- neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind
* NKJV - Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor ****sexuals,
* Young's Literal Translation - neither *****mongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor Effeminate, nor Sodomites
* ESV - neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice ****sexuality
The Bible says what it says. Sexual sins are one of the toughest battles in life for most people . God wants us to turn from our sins and live. The flesh wars against the spirit. It's a daily battle.
Perhaps so, but nonetheless it must be translated and interpreted by we humans if we are to decide on how, or if, it is relevant to our lives today.
I find it impossible to condemn my gay and lesbian friends with the same broad brush with which Paul condemns ****nokoites and malakoi.1 Corinthians 6:9-11 tells us who will Not inherit the Kingdom of God.
That may be because 1) Paul was not exposed to any healthy, loving, same-sex couples, 2) ****nokoites and malakoi are actually referring to participants in ritual sex, pros***ution and pederasty, not intimate relationships between equals, 3) Paul was wrong, 4) something else about the way that 21st century English misses the original intent of 1st century Greco-Judaic thought.
I am no longer able to regard my friends' innate attractions, their desire to love and be loved by the one person with whom they spend their lives, their strength, courage, commitment and devotion in the face of adversity, the grace and friendship and mutuality and other-preferring agape I witness in their lives to be "sexual sin" against which they ought to "battle" and "turn from". I just can't do it. Reality compels me.Sexual sins are one of the toughest battles in life for most people . God wants us to turn from our sins and live. The flesh wars against the spirit. It's a daily battle.
I agree that the Bible is not politically correct. I see it as challenging and subversive to all "-isms".It's not Politically correct, but it's the Truth.
The whole law is summed up in a single commandment, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
You make a good point,The Bible says what it says. It's not Politically correct, but it's the Truth. It is what it is.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 tells us who will Not inherit the Kingdom of God.
* NIV - Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men.
* KJV- neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind
* NKJV - Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor ****sexuals,
* Young's Literal Translation - neither *****mongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor Effeminate, nor Sodomites
* ESV - neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice ****sexuality
The Bible says what it says. Sexual sins are one of the toughest battles in life for most people . God wants us to turn from our sins and live. The flesh wars against the spirit. It's a daily battle.
The text of the Bible is very clear here and with no way around this we have to accept the truth of what God is telling us.
what our Lord God is saying is that the Gays do not enter into the Kingdom.
unless they repent of their dirty sin they face a future without hope,without love, without end.....
This is why the message to the Gays by the church is so important, and needed in these times where it is all so common that the world call 'good" evil" and "evil" is called "good"
It is your tradition that is calling a sexual minority "dirty". Don't project your prejudice onto God.
I believe you're right. Unfortunately, the message the church is currently sending is one of hatred, unwelcoming, and exclusion—even to the point of organizing to "protect" society from them having equal rights under civil law.This is why the message to the Gays by the church is so important,
Indeed. Like calling exclusion and discrimination "traditional family values", and calling loving, committed, monogamous couples who want to be included as equals in society "dirty, disgusting perverts whom God hates".and needed in these times where it is all so common that the world call 'good" evil" and "evil" is called "good"
Are you Really saying that Paul The Apostle speaking by the Holy Spirit was wrong ?
You need to stop trying to twist the scriptures. You also need to stop trying to justify people's sins. Sodom and Gomorrah were Completely Destroyed for Sodomy and Sexual Sins . They are Suffering the vengeance of Eternal Fire.
* Jude 1:7
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given Themselves over to SEXUAL IMMORALITY and gone after Strange Flesh, are set forth as an Example, SUFFERING The VENGEANCE of ETERNAL FIRE.
If you love someone you tell them the Truth. Telling them the Truth is the most loving thing you can do. If they don't repent then they will Not inherit the Kingdom of God. If they don't repent then they are proving that they Love there Sin more then they love God.
No. I said that I am more able to entertain the possibility that Paul the Apostle was wrong than I am to entertain the possibility that all GLBT people are inherently doomed and hated by God.
I am doing nothing of the sort. I am attempting to understand the scriptures, when a naive, face-value reading conflicts with objective reality—just like I try to understand the scriptures when a naive, face-value reading tells me that God approves of the theft of others' labor (slavery), the subjugation of women, and a geocentric, flat-earth view of the cosmos.You need to stop trying to twist the scriptures.
I am doing nothing of the sort. My gay and lesbian friends' iden***y and attractional orientation is no more a sin than my iden***y and attractional orientation towards my wife.You also need to stop trying to justify people's sins.
I'm afraid you're mistaken.Sodom and Gomorrah were Completely Destroyed for Sodomy and Sexual Sins .
Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
Ezekiel 16.49-50
According to the text, the Sodomites made egregious violations of the Ancient Near Eastern hospitality codes—up to and including attempting to gang-rape strangers.
To attempt to cl***ify my gay friends' love and commitment to their life-partners in the same category as gang-rape is offensive anti-reality.
Telling my friends that their devotion, their strength in adversity, their other-serving, other-preferring, peacemaking, life-affirming love is something to be repented of is the height of unTruth.If you love someone you tell them the Truth. Telling them the Truth is the most loving thing you can do. If they don't repent then they will Not inherit the Kingdom of God. If they don't repent then they are proving that they Love there Sin more then they love God.
"Against such things there is no law".
asdf you need to repent. ****sexuals Will NOT Inherit The Kingdom of God. I'm not trying to be a bigot or mean or anything like that. I'm just telling you what the Holy Spirit has said to us in the Scriptures. Romans 1:28-32 applies to you in this situation.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a Debased Mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, Sexual Immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 [who, knowing the Righteous Judgment of God, that those who Practice such things are Deserving of Death, Not Only Do the Same But Also APPROVE Of Those Who Practice Them.]
* asdf I don't trust anything you say. You are listening to deceiving demons . Just Stop. You should warn people to repent of there sins instead of just laying down and dying.
What is th... I don't even...
Well you've certainly made up in bluster and condemnation what you lack in reading comprehension and ability to even pretend to address my posts, I'll grant you that.asdf you need to repent. ****sexuals Will NOT Inherit The Kingdom of God. I'm not trying to be a bigot or mean or anything like that. I'm just telling you what the Holy Spirit has said to us in the Scriptures. Romans 1:28-32 applies to you in this situation.
(...)
* asdf I don't trust anything you say. You are listening to deceiving demons . Just Stop. You should warn people to repent of there sins instead of just laying down and dying.
Q - So what does the Bible say about the eternal future of all the gays?....
A - that they will not enter into the Kingdom.
Q - What does that mean that they will not enter into the Kingdom?...
A - It means that will be gathered together before the Judgement seat of Christ, where they will be condemned...and tossed with Satan into the eternally burning Lake Of fire.
Q - So the Gays are tossed into the lake of Fire....but then what next?.....
A - there is no "what next?", there is no change in their eternal existence from that moment on.
Q - so the gays burn forever?
A - yes....and forever is a very, very long time.
A#1- Well, if they are unrepentant, although I think that's what we are talking about here.Q - So what does the Bible say about the eternal future of all the gays?....
A - that they will not enter into the Kingdom.
Q - What does that mean that they will not enter into the Kingdom?...
A - It means that will be gathered together before the Judgement seat of Christ, where they will be condemned...and tossed with Satan into the eternally burning Lake Of fire.
Q - So the Gays are tossed into the lake of Fire....but then what next?.....
A - there is no "what next?", there is no change in their eternal existence from that moment on.
Q - so the gays burn forever?
A - yes....and forever is a very, very long time.
A#2- Yeah
A#3- Okay
A#4- Just to make sure, we're talking about people who are unrepentant ****sexuals, and not just people who have strong same-sex urges right?
You make it painfully evident that you're not even trying to read and respond to my posts. You've got a script, and you're sticking to it.Q - So what does the Bible say about the eternal future of all the gays?....
A - that they will not enter into the Kingdom.
Q - What does that mean that they will not enter into the Kingdom?...
A - It means that will be gathered together before the Judgement seat of Christ, where they will be condemned...and tossed with Satan into the eternally burning Lake Of fire.
Q - So the Gays are tossed into the lake of Fire....but then what next?.....
A - there is no "what next?", there is no change in their eternal existence from that moment on.
Q - so the gays burn forever?
A - yes....and forever is a very, very long time.
You also continue to make it painfully evident that you don't know any gay people.
The truth will set you free.
Some people try to say that only gay "actions" condemn a person to hell...but our Lord was very clear at pointing out that even our inner most private thoughts condemn a person.
Considering what else is on Paul's "sin list" along with malakoi and ****nokoites, one might think you'd be more circumspect and less glib about condemning vast swathes of humanity to unending torture.
Or have you never stolen anything, been greedy or slandered or served an idol—even in your "inner most private thoughts"?
The problem here is that you're answering your own question. God condemns ALL sin. Have you been greedy, slandering, served an idol, like admiring sports more than God?Considering what else is on Paul's "sin list" along with malakoi and ****nokoites, one might think you'd be more circumspect and less glib about condemning vast swathes of humanity to unending torture.
Or have you never stolen anything, been greedy or slandered or served an idol—even in your "inner most private thoughts"?
If the answer is yes, then having ****sexual thoughts and mannerisms shouldn't be far behind what is condemned. What's easy to understand, or at least it should be, is that you can hate things God hates without hating people.
I love thieves. I love my enemies. I hate what they do.
Likewise, God directly loves ****sexuals while he despises ****sexuality, what ****sexuality does to them and how ugly it is. Bare in mind it's not just ugly because of what it does but what it represents. Man was made in the image of God, and ecspecially for believers, when someone turns away from how God made them, it not only makes God a liar but it corrupts his image.
However, I am well-aware that having same sex attraction doesn't make you a murderer, a violent person, or a particular despicable person. The problem with God and ****sexuality is not the degree of sinfulness, it's SIN it'self.
My point is not the condemnation, it is the result of that condemnation. Alan seems to be so gleeful & glib in talking about unending, hellacious torment for gay people, based on [his understanding of] Paul's list, not realizing that by his own standard he condemns himself to the same.The problem here is that you're answering your own question. God condemns ALL sin. Have you been greedy, slandering, served an idol, like admiring sports more than God?
If the answer is yes, then having ****sexual thoughts and mannerisms shouldn't be far behind what is condemned.
"For with the measure with which you judge, you will be judged."
– Jesus of Nazareth
"Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in p***ing judgment on another you condemn yourself because you, the judge, are doing the very same things."
– Paul of Tarsus
Also, [I repeat myself] I disagree that "****sexual thoughts and mannerisms" are what is condemned by Paul as malakoi and ****nokoites.
I grant that it's possible. But considering that the ones who "hate ****sexual sin" are also the ones who are fighting against all legal and civil protection for GLBT people, I do not think that theoretical possibility is applicable in this instance.What's easy to understand, or at least it should be, is that you can hate things God hates without hating people.
I disagree that living an honest life; embracing love, confidence, and maturity; being true to oneself and to society; committing to meaningful love and relationship is "making God a liar", "turning away from how God made" one, or "sinful".Likewise, God directly loves ****sexuals while he despises ****sexuality, what ****sexuality does to them and how ugly it is. Bare in mind it's not just ugly because of what it does but what it represents. Man was made in the image of God, and ecspecially for believers, when someone turns away from how God made them, it not only makes God a liar but it corrupts his image.
However, I am well-aware that having same sex attraction doesn't make you a murderer, a violent person, or a particular despicable person. The problem with God and ****sexuality is not the degree of sinfulness, it's SIN it'self.
Last edited by asdf; 10-13-2012 at 05:09 PM.
Then you disagree with God. While everything you've listed is good in and of themselves, nothing is adequate for spiritual growth without God, his word and his Son Jesus.My point is not the condemnation, it is the result of that condemnation. Alan seems to be so gleeful & glib in talking about unending, hellacious torment for gay people, based on [his understanding of] Paul's list, not realizing that by his own standard he condemns himself to the same.
"For with the measure with which you judge, you will be judged."
– Jesus of Nazareth
"Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in p***ing judgment on another you condemn yourself because you, the judge, are doing the very same things."
– Paul of Tarsus
Also, [I repeat myself] I disagree that "****sexual thoughts and mannerisms" are what is condemned by Paul as malakoi and ****nokoites.
I grant that it's possible. But considering that the ones who "hate ****sexual sin" are also the ones who are fighting against all legal and civil protection for GLBT people, I do not think that theoretical possibility is applicable in this instance.
I disagree that living an honest life; embracing love, confidence, and maturity; being true to oneself and to society; committing to meaningful love and relationship is "making God a liar", "turning away from how God made" one, or "sinful".
I disagree with you that I disagree with God.
I believe that things that are good—things that are "good in and of themselves"—are in fact good. "Think on these things", "against such things there is no law", "everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial", "everyone who loves is in God, for God is love".While everything you've listed is good in and of themselves, nothing is adequate for spiritual growth without God, his word and his Son Jesus.
Where there is love, where there is goodness & beauty & fidelity & shalom & perseverance & self-sacrifice & ... — that's where God is. That's what God smiles upon.
I'm not able to regard that as in any way inferior to my own relationship with my wife. I'm not able to regard that as something that is hated by a God who is good.