"Heaven"

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Actually, this is someone's near death experience...someone who had no previous knowledge of Mormonism.

Yes and she went where only Baptized mormons are suppose to be able to go.. that is kind of anti mormon of you to bring up now isn't? IHS jim

[Libby]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Yes and she went where only Baptized mormons are suppose to be able to go.. that is kind of anti mormon of you to bring up now isn't? IHS jim

Actually, no she didn't. She was given knowledge of 'three heavens', but did not actually "go" to any of them.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

Actually, no she didn't. She was given knowledge of 'three heavens', but did not actually "go" to any of them.

Your post didn't say a word about three kingdoms. It didn't say she wasn't with Jesus (Who according to the Bible has taking His place at the right hand of the Father). You did say that she remembered former lives (Reincarnation). That is a part of mormonism now isn't it? NOT!! I don't understand what you saw her saying but it wasn't the same thing you communicated to me.. Strange that you thought she was seeing heaven when you started this thread.. After all you even called the thread "heaven".. I guess you didn't understand that you were saying, so was she in heaven or not? Stop trying to make it up as you go along and just say that you haven't any idea what you are talking about. IHS jim

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Your post didn't say a word about three kingdoms. It didn't say she wasn't with Jesus (Who according to the Bible has taking His place at the right hand of the Father). You did say that she remembered former lives (Reincarnation). That is a part of mormonism now isn't it? NOT!! I don't understand what you saw her saying but it wasn't the same thing you communicated to me.. IHS jim

Why would the guy see or know all this?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Why would the guy see or know all this?

Why would she talk about reincarnation? Seems to be Just as Biblical as 3 heavens.. Is mormonism going to add reincarnation to the 72 Section of the D&C? may as well add it then you would have one more reason to accept the teachings of men and not just rely on Smith's lies.. IHS jim

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Why would she talk about reincarnation? Seems to be Just as Biblical as 3 heavens.. Is mormonism going to add reincarnation to the 72 Section of the D&C? may as well add it then you would have one more reason to accept the teachings of men and not just rely on Smith's lies.. IHS jim

So would your idea of a trip to heaven look like...clouds, God not caring what kind of man you have been. What would a Spirit who fills the universe look like? Any angels with bird wings?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

So would your idea of a trip to heaven look like...clouds, God not caring what kind of man you have been. What would a Spirit who fills the universe look like? Any angels with bird wings?

Answered in one word... JESUS.. IHS jim

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Answered in one word... JESUS.. IHS jim

So just you and Jesus...I ***ume you know what he looks like. Well if it is just the two of you I guess it would be easy. How angry will you be when you see Mormons there?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Your post didn't say a word about three kingdoms. It didn't say she wasn't with Jesus (Who according to the Bible has taking His place at the right hand of the Father). You did say that she remembered former lives (Reincarnation). That is a part of mormonism now isn't it? NOT!! I don't understand what you saw her saying but it wasn't the same thing you communicated to me.. Strange that you thought she was seeing heaven when you started this thread.. After all you even called the thread "heaven".. I guess you didn't understand that you were saying, so was she in heaven or not? Stop trying to make it up as you go along and just say that you haven't any idea what you are talking about. IHS jim

You are very confused, Jim. There was nothing about reincarnation in her book. She remembered a relationship with Jesus Christ in a "premortal life" (same as LDS believe). The "heavens" were pointed out, but she did not personally go there.

Nothing on this thread is "made up". This is from a book about Elane Durham's "death experience". You might want to go back and actually read it. That should clear up some of your confusion.

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by Libby

You are very confused, Jim. There was nothing about reincarnation in her book. She remembered a relationship with Jesus Christ in a "premortal life" (same as LDS believe). The "heavens" were pointed out, but she did not personally go there.

Nothing on this thread is "made up". This is from a book about Elane Durham's "death experience". You might want to go back and actually read it. That should clear up some of your confusion.

If it does not fit his view...he can't see or believe.

[Libby]

Well, I don't think James really wants to understand any of this...which is fine. We all have our agency.

Will continue Elane's death experience, in just a minute.

[Libby]

continued..................

MY LORD JESUS CHRIST

But that sure and certain knowledge of who Christ was, completely humbled me. I had always thought of myself as unworthy of any sort of communication with God, and yet here I was, being drawn into His presence. Even while it was happening I found myself struggling to believe, to comprehend that it was happening to me. I was actually in the presence of my Savior and my Redeemer, Jesus Christ! A LIFE' S REVIEW “What have you done for your fellow man?” He asked me then with His wordless communication, and instantly my entire life was before my eyes. It wasn't like I was seeing a movie, with scenes laid out in sequence. Instead it was somehow all at once, so that many different aspects of my life were laid out for me to see and contemplate all in the same instant. And in that same instant I chose, because of all the trauma and abuse I had experienced, to focus on every incident for which I felt guilt and shame. These, I was certain, would cause Him to release me and turn away

A LIFE' S REVIEW

“What have you done for your fellow man?” He asked me then with His wordless communication, and instantly my entire life was before my eyes. It wasn't like I was seeing a movie, with scenes laid out in sequence. Instead it was somehow all at once, so that many different aspects of my life were laid out for me to see and contemplate all in the same instant. And in that same instant I chose, because of all the trauma and abuse I had experienced, to focus on every incident for which I felt guilt and shame. These, I was certain, would cause Him to release me and turn away from me. But no, that didn't happen. Instead he told me that every single aspect of my guilt and shame had either been forgiven by Him already because of my repentance, or had come about because of how I had been raised or treated, and had not, therefore, been of my choice. As I struggled to understand this He reminded me that I had never turned my back on God, but had daily sought Him, begging for forgiveness for the sins I had committed, and pleading for His presence in my life. Now, I realized abruptly, those prayers and pleadings were being answered.

And then, wonder of all wonders, and in direct confirmation of His words, Christ raised his hand and somehow brought me instantly and completely into the light of His glory.

[Libby]

Elane's story continued...............

THE LOVE OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

There are no words to adequately describe this, but somehow I realized that I had actually become a part of Christ's light. With incredible tenderness He made me part of His eternal presence, His eternal peace, and I felt a perfect joy such as I've never known, either before or since. I knew that my Lord knew me beyond anything I could ever imagine, and yet despite what He knew of me He loved me infinitely more than I could comprehend. The love I felt from Christ was the most powerful feeling I had ever experienced. It was absolutely overwhelming, and I knew if I had been in my physical body it would have left me powerless, and perhaps might even have destroyed me. There was heat ***ociated with it, too, a wonderful burning that swept through me again and again, like waves of comforting fire, cleansing me and purifying me so that I felt at peace being with Christ.

[Libby]

continued..........

FORGIVING MYSELF

Being encircled within His love I was able, for the first time in my life, to completely forgive myself. I had to, for I could not in any way oppose how Christ felt about me. Unconditionally I was loved, completely had I been forgiven, and perfectly was I understood. And because His thoughts and understanding and love had somehow become my own, I was able to feel the same way about myself as He did. In my “review” I was shown all the times when I had acted indifferently or even cruelly toward my younger brother—the times I had let him take the blame for my childhood mischief, or the times I had hurt him in some other way. For instance, I remembered once when I had thrown a small block of wood off a stair railing and hit him, and had felt quite indifferent to his pain. Now I found myself experiencing his pain, his feelings of intimidation and all the insecurities he felt in having me as an older sister, and suddenly I understood him better, probably, than he had ever understood himself.

[Libby]

continued...............

THE LORD'S FORGIVENESS

I also knew that it was because of my later efforts to love and nurture and protect him, as well as my other siblings when our family was suffering and finally disintegrating—and my constant prayers of repentance, that I now merited the Lord's complete forgiveness. For I was completely forgiven, and I knew it! In that context I was made aware that Christ knew and understood every single aspect of the incestuous abuse perpetrated upon me by my father. Yet I not only felt my Redeemer's complete love and acceptance of me in spite of this, for I could finally see absolutely that it had not been my fault—but I was also allowed to feel His unconditional love for my father, which gave me great peace.

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by Libby

continued...............

All good parents forgive...and God is a perfect parent.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

All good parents forgive...and God I'd a perfect parent.

So do you think God will forgive mormons who worship false gods especially those who know better such as yourself?

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So do you think God will forgive mormons who worship false gods especially those who know better such as yourself?

Not a possibility...we know the truth.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So do you think God will forgive mormons who worship false gods especially those who know better such as yourself?

From reading Elane's story, God can forgive anything, especially, if it was done in ignorance or if the person shows regret (repentance).

Why would a loving God hold someone responsible for doing something they didn't know was wrong, Billy? Especially, when they are trying their best to do what they believe is RIGHT...?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

From reading Elane's story. . .

This is the trouble with you Libby you seem to latch onto extra Biblical teachings and then reject sections of the Bible. That is why you have gotten so far off course.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

This is the trouble with you Libby you seem to latch onto extra Biblical teachings and then reject sections of the Bible. That is why you have gotten so far off course.

No, I don't "latch onto" anything. That is what you do. I look at everything and consider all of the possibilities. God is not just in the book that you cling to, Billy. God is everywhere! God is showing us things (wonderful things!) all the time! You just have to open your eyes and your mind!

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

God is not just in the book that you cling to, Billy.

God's work is in the Bible and yet you disregard large chunks of it because you don't like what God has to say.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

God's work is in the Bible and yet you disregard large chunks of it because you don't like what God has to say.

I disregard "some of it", because I don't believe it is from God.

That's what you don't seem to "get".

[ActRaiser]

Originally Posted by Libby

I disregard "some of it", because I don't believe it is from God.

That's what you don't seem to "get".

The real irony of this is you can believe all of the Bible and disagree with Jesus being THE way to Heaven and you'd still be going straight to Hell.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by ActRaiser

The real irony of this is you can believe all of the Bible and disagree with Jesus being THE way to Heaven and you'd still be going straight to Hell.

Then you wouldn't "believe all of the Bible".