Defining "works-based salvation" and the Blood of Christ

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

[B]Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

If ALL men are justified then they are seen as not guilty before God. Why do you believe that a person who is not guilty will be sent to Hell?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It is a sin to refuse to obey Christ.

Is it a sin for Christ to refuse to love all mankind and to refuse to die for all mankind?

Do you believe that Christ paid for some sins but not all sins?

So you're asking Dberrie: "Do you believe, like Billyray does, that Jesus only loved and atoned for a few of us, and that He never had any intention of making salvation available to the rest of mankind?"

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Is it a sin for Christ to refuse to love all mankind and to refuse to die for all mankind?


So you're asking Dberrie: "Do you believe, like Billyray does, that Jesus only loved and atoned for a few of us, and that He never had any intention of making salvation available to the rest of mankind?"

Lost in translation, or something?
Don't know what you mean by (it is a sin for Christ to refuse to love?)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Is it a sin for Christ to refuse to love all mankind and to refuse to die for all mankind?

Christ is God and is without sin, hopefully you knew that already. Now that I answered you question perhaps you could answer my questions.

It is a sin to refuse to obey Christ.

Do you believe that Christ paid for some sins but not all sins?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Originally Posted by Billyray

If ALL men are justified then they are seen as not guilty before God.

As to the condemnation that befell all men due to the Fall--they aren't. They are absolved--justified--of life. Now, all men are justified to the opportunity of eternal life.

Why do you believe that a person who is not guilty will be sent to Hell?

Because all men will now be judged according to their own actions--and not the condemnation that befell all men due to the Fall. They refuse to obey the conditions set by the Redeemer--and are judged according to their own works. But all are freed--justified--absolved--of the condemnation that fell on all men due to the Fall. Christ's Atonement for all men absolved all men of that guilt. They now will either receive of His grace by obeying Christ--the Redeemer--who has the right to set the conditions, seeing that He bought us with a price. And all will now be judged according to our obedience(works)--and either receive of His grace unto life--or ****ation--according to our obedience to Christ--our Redeemer.

[RealFakeHair]

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;144600]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Romans 5:18

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.




As to the condemnation that befell all men due to the Fall--they aren't. They are absolved--justified--of life. Now, all men are justified to the opportunity of eternal life.



Because all men will now be judged according to their own actions--and not the condemnation that befell all men due to the Fall. They refuse to obey the conditions set by the Redeemer--and are judged according to their own works. But all are freed--justified--absolved--of the condemnation that fell on all men due to the Fall. Christ's Atonement for all men absolved all men of that guilt. They now will either receive of His grace by obeying Christ--the Redeemer--who has the right to set the conditions, seeing that He bought us with a price. And all will now be judged according to our obedience(works)--and either receive of His grace unto life--or ****ation--according to our obedience to Christ--our Redeemer.

I get a Work-out just watching you two go at each other. Lets settle it right here, dberrie, you be judge by your works and let Billray be judge by Grace, and let it be for now, hows bout it?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

I get a Work-out just watching you two go at each other. Lets settle it right here, dberrie, you be judge by your works and let Billray be judge by Grace, and let it be for now, hows bout it?

This seems to be the only topic DB likes to talk about both here and on CARM (when he is not banned of course).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

As to the condemnation that befell all men due to the Fall--they aren't. They are absolved--justified--of life. Now, all men are justified to the opportunity of eternal life.

So on the one hand you say that all men are justified but on the other hand not all men are justified. Don't you see that your beliefs are in conflict?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray
Why do you believe that a person who is not guilty will be sent to Hell?

DB
Because all men will now be judged according to their own actions--and not the condemnation that befell all men due to the Fall. They refuse to obey the conditions set by the Redeemer--and are judged according to their own works. But all are freed--justified--absolved--of the condemnation that fell on all men due to the Fall. Christ's Atonement for all men absolved all men of that guilt. They now will either receive of His grace by obeying Christ--the Redeemer--who has the right to set the conditions, seeing that He bought us with a price. And all will now be judged according to our obedience(works)--and either receive of His grace unto life--or ****ation--according to our obedience to Christ--our Redeemer.

So bottom line you don't really believe that all men are justified. If that is the case why do you keep using this verse?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Christ is God and is without sin, hopefully you knew that already.

I can't speak for you, but LDS believe that Jesus is not a sinner. But then, LDS believe that Jesus loved ALL of us enough to die for ALL of us. If you believe that He hates most of the human race so much that He refused to die for them, then maybe you believe that was a sin. Plus: Funny how you re-define "all" to mean "just the relatively few elect people." Yet when it comes to "all have sinned" then you switch over to "All really does mean literally all including fetusus."

How come you get to change the meaning of "all" in the Bible to suit your beliefs, but you won't allow the LDS to do that with regard to theirs?

Now that I answered you question perhaps you could answer my questions.

Okay. Dberrie and I have demolished your argument so thoroughly, you deserve some mercy.

It is a sin to refuse to obey Christ.

Deliberately, knowingly refusing to do what Christ wants you to do is indeed a sin. Which proves that little babies do not sin, for they cannot sin. They aren't aware of what Christ wants them to do yet, therefore they CAN'T deliberately refuse to obey Him. Babies sin less than pretty much any adult does.

Do you believe that Christ paid for some sins but not all sins?

No. Well, He may not have paid for Satan's sins.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I can't speak for you, but LDS believe that Jesus is not a sinner.

You already know what I believe Jeff which is that Jesus is without sin so why the games. Nor did I ever say that LDS believe that Jesus was a sinner.

You said

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Is it a sin for Christ to refuse to love all mankind and to refuse to die for all mankind?

Can you tell me where in the Bible that it says that it is a sin for Christ to die for the elect, not for every single person?

You don't even believe that Jesus paid for every sin for every person so by logic do you consider Jesus a sinner for not doing so?

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What do you claim as your church?

I call most of them mine so long as they haven’t removed themselves from the way. Real time claims? Sure. I’m currently learning of the liturgical catholic, in the small “c” way.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

DB - Could anyone comment on whether this scripture is works-based?

MS - no

DB - If that is true--then Gos gives His salvational grace to those who walk in His light, without the accusation of a works-based salvation. The faith alone theology(sola fide) is faith that is alone for salvation. Any scripture that has God giving His salvational grace for obedience to Him is considered a false doctrine--yet, the Biblical NT testifies to just that--God giving His grace unto life to those who obey Him.

DB - The faith alone don't usually use such language as "maintenance of salvation".

Nice perception, who said I was anything of the sort? Apparently, from my answer, you haven’t included those our Lord categorized in the interim. They are neither proven in works, nor denied of salvation.

, , ,“these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; 17and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary”,,, (Mark 4:16, 17) NAS

So whether they finish the race or not, while only babes, they are temporary brothers. So, in the event that the Lord was to take them home somewhere within that “temporary” point, guess what, ,

“, , He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, ,”
(John 1:12) NAS

Since there within the word we see a p***age for every stage of Christian maturity, or immaturity, it’s only fitting to include this one.

But in the procession of Life immediately beyond that, the faith alone view is worthless. James 2:14.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Deliberately, knowingly refusing to do what Christ wants you to do is indeed a sin.

So you can't possibly believe that Jesus paid for every sin for every person.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Deliberately, knowingly refusing to do what Christ wants you to do is indeed a sin.

So it is your position that it is not a sin to break God's laws even if you are not aware of those laws?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


. . .If that is true--then Gos gives His salvational grace to those who walk in His light. . .

Do you really believe that this Chapter in general and specifically this verse is addressing unbelievers who are not already saved?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You already know what I believe Jeff which is that Jesus is without sin so why the games.

Because you reject the "essential Christian doctrine" that teaches that Jesus atoned for the sins of the world, meaning the sins of all who lived or will live in this world.

Nor did I ever say that LDS believe that Jesus was a sinner.

But isn't failing to love one's neighbor a sin? Jesus taught that, right? Don't you think that Jesus was willing and able to obey all the commandments He gave to His disciples? Just by basic logic, then, it seems reasonable to ***ume that Jesus obeyed His own commandment to love others as you love yourself. But you believe that Jesus did NOT love all humans. You believe He only loved the small minority of the human race who you believe to be "the chosen elect."

Therefore, you believe that Jesus broke His own commandment.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Because you reject the "essential Christian doctrine" that teaches that Jesus atoned for the sins of the world, meaning the sins of all who lived or will live in this world.

You don't even believe that Jesus paid for every sin for every single person and you are saying that this is an "essential Christian doctrine"?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

John 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 17: 6*“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7*Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8*For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9*I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

Did you bother reading any of the verses that I gave you?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But isn't failing to love one's neighbor a sin?

Is it unloving for Christ not to pay for sins for those who will never come to Him by faith?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---1 John 1:7

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


. . .If that is true--then God gives His salvational grace to those who walk in His light. . .

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you really believe that this Chapter in general and specifically this verse is addressing unbelievers who are not already saved?

I believe that John is bearing witness to truth, regardless of who he is addressing. And the truth is---this verse conveys that God gives His grace to those who walk in His light. If that is true--faith alone theology is false.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Apparently, from my answer, you haven’t included those our Lord categorized in the interim. They are neither proven in works, nor denied of salvation.

, , ,“these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; 17and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary”,,, (Mark 4:16, 17) NAS

So whether they finish the race or not, while only babes, they are temporary brothers. So, in the event that the Lord was to take them home somewhere within that “temporary” point, guess what, ,

“, , He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, ,”
(John 1:12) NAS

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Since there within the word we see a p***age for every stage of Christian maturity, or immaturity, it’s only fitting to include this one.

But in the procession of Life immediately beyond that, the faith alone view is worthless. James 2:14.

James 2:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Procession beyond what? The question being--can dead faith save one?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I believe that John is bearing witness to truth, regardless of who he is addressing. And the truth is---this verse conveys that God gives His grace to those who walk in His light. If that is true--faith alone theology is false.

So it is your position that John is speaking about unbelievers in this verse and the surrounding verses?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Is it unloving for Christ not to pay for sins for those who will never come to Him by faith?

So you believe that Christ doesn't love people unconditionally. Is your belief really a Christian belief?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So you believe that Christ doesn't love people unconditionally. Is your belief really a Christian belief?

God is loving and he is just. Not a single person deserves salvation and it would be fair and just for God to not save any of those who sinned. This is exactly what he did when the angles sinned.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So you believe that Christ doesn't love people unconditionally. Is your belief really a Christian belief?

Malachi 1

1 A prophecy: The word of the Lord to Israel through Malachi.[a]
2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord. “But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’ “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob,
3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

Jeff you brought up an interesting point--one that I hope you will further engage.

Who is the "Lord" in verse 2?

What does the "Lord" say about Esau in verse 3?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

God is loving and he is just.

But because you follow Calvin's teachings, you believe that Jesus only loved a fraction of the human race. You believe that Jesus either was unable or unwilling to die or atone for most of us. And you believe that is a loving thing to do? If you believe that, then what would Jesus have done if He HATED that majority of the human race?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But because you follow Calvin's teachings, you believe that Jesus only loved a fraction of the human race.

Jeff I don't follow Calvin, I follow what the Bible teaches. If I thought that the Bible taught that Jesus paid for every sin for every single person then I would believe that, but it doesn't. And it brings up the problem that if Jesus did pay for every single sin for every single person then nobody would end up in hell.

I gave you several verses that speak about limited atonement. Did you bother even reading them?