Defining "works-based salvation" and the Blood of Christ

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

More diversion. You believe that Christ's Atonement forgave all those sins He Atoned for--how could that be--seeing all were commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins following the Atonement and Resurrection of Christ?

No diversion at all DB, perhaps you just don't seem to grasp what I am saying. Forgiveness of sins takes place when a person comes to Christ and places their faith in Him. Did that clear things up for you?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)


2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Billyray--you have no where to run..

If this were the only verse in the Bible that spoke on this issue then I would agree with you that Christ paid for every sin for every person for those who come to him by faith, but it is not the only p***age on this topic. Several other verses clearly teach that Jesus died for his sheep and not for every single person. So the only way that all of the verses can be true at the same time is to interpret 1 John 2:2 as referring to the sins of fellow believers throughout the world.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

From your statement above it doesn't look like you believe that Jesus PAID for every single sin for every single person. If he did then what is the basis for sending anyone to Hell?

They send themselves there by their choice to throw away the opportunity, paid for by Jesus, to walk the path that leads to eternal life.

That is one more thing you don't seem to be comprehending. In the parable of the prepaid plane tickets, it wasn't the wealthy benefactor who kept some people from getting on the plane. Their tickets had been paid for but they chose not to fly. In the parable of the bridge across the canyon, the Builder of the Bridge built it for ALL to cross if they want to. He doesn't SEND anyone over the edge of the cliff. They CHOOSE to take a path that leads off the edge instead of taking the bridge that leads safely to the other side. That's not the Bridge Builder's fault. And He didn't give His life building the bridge for just a few elite people whom He randomly chose to save. He built it for EVERYONE to use. He doesn't forbid ANYONE from using it.

But YOUR belief, which seems identical to Calvin's unbiblical belief, is that the Builder deliberately intended His bridge to only save a FEW of the people, and that He WANTS the rest to fall off the cliff and die.

That's no Builder that I want to believe in. That's a savior of the few--the few who were singled out for salvation, and the rest are forbidden from even being able to be saved. (You do believe that those who God predestined for ****ation, were made by Him to be unable to obey Him, right?)

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)


2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Billyray--you have no where to run..

Originally Posted by Billyray

If this were the only verse in the Bible that spoke on this issue then I would agree with you that Christ paid for every sin for every person for those who come to him by faith, but it is not the only p***age on this topic.

IOW--you can find scriptures that cancel, rub out, and delete any scripture that defies your theology?

Well--you are right---there are other scriptures:

Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

1 Timothy 4:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


1 Timothy 2:4----King James Version (KJV)
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

***us 2:11---King James Version (KJV)
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Romans 5:18----King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

2 Corinthians 5:15---King James Version (KJV)
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If this were the only verse in the Bible that spoke on this issue then I would agree with you that Christ paid for every sin for every person for those who come to him by faith, but it is not the only p***age on this topic. Several other verses clearly teach that Jesus died for his sheep

Yes, He even died for the lost sheep.

and not for every single person.

\If you can find a Bible verse that actually says what you're claiming it says, I will donate some money to the Salvation Army. I think you can't find a verse that says "Jesus did not die for every single person" because no such verse exists.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Yes, He even died for the lost sheep.

But that is not what that verse says Jeff.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If you can find a Bible verse that actually says what you're claiming it says, I will donate some money to the Salvation Army. I think you can't find a verse that says "Jesus did not die for every single person" because no such verse exists.

Sure I would be happy to give you a verse which uses ALL in this case not EVERY.

Luke 2
1. And it came to p*** in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

Do you believe that ALL in the world were taxed?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

IRomans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life..

Let's take a look at your verses one by one starting with this one since it is one of your favorite verses. Do you believe that "all" in this verse and in the surrounding text is referring to all men or all believers?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sure I would be happy to give you a verse which uses ALL in this case not EVERY.

Luke 2
1. And it came to p*** in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

Do you believe that ALL in the world were taxed?

Well, you believe that "all have sinned" means literally all, with no exceptions, so why don't you believe that Augustus wanted the entire planet Earth to be taxed?

Anyway, I noticed that you failed to find a verse that says "Jesus did not die for every single person."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Anyway, I noticed that you failed to find a verse that says "Jesus did not die for every single person."

Jeff I gave you multiple verses several times now and I even asked you to comment on them

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So you are one of those limited atonement folks who believe that there are billions of people who Jesus refused to, or failed to, die for?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Absolutely. . .

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So you believe that Jesus refused or failed to atone for most people's sins. Wow. A finite atonement is what you believe in. . .

What does the Bible say?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

John 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 17: 6*“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7*Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8*For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9*I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff I gave you multiple verse on this will you address them for me?

[Billyray]

Matthew 26
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Ephesians 5:25*Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Anyway, I noticed that you failed to find a verse that says "Jesus did not die for every single person."

Now are you ever going to give me an honest answer why you believe that God would send anyone to hell if Christ PAID for every single sin for every single person?

[Billyray]

Lets use a real world example of a debt that you own such as a house and you have a huge mortgage that you are unable to pay because you lost your ***. You have a friend that is willing and wants to help you. Below are two different scenarios.

1. The friend offers to pay your debt off completely but he does not do so because you refuse his offer.

2. The friend pays off your debt completely.

In scenario 1 the offer was made but the debt was not paid and you are still on the hook for every penny because you did not accept his offer. In scenario 2 the debt was paid in full and whether you accepted his offer or not you do not owe the bank a dime because your debt was paid in full. Which scenario best describes your view of the atonement, scenario 1 or scenario 2?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Let's take a look at your verses one by one starting with this one since it is one of your favorite verses. Do you believe that "all" in this verse and in the surrounding text is referring to all men or all believers?

I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all the verses that point to that:


Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 4:10---King James Version (KJV)


10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.



2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



1 Timothy 2:4----King James Version (KJV)


4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


***us 2:11---King James Version (KJV)

[COLOR="#FF0000"][COLOR="#000000"]
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


Romans 5:18----King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


2 Corinthians 5:15---King James Version (KJV)


15 And that he died for all,that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Matthew 26
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Ephesians 5:25*Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Your eisegesis that resulted in your incorrect Calvinistic conclusions is the result of some bad logic, as follows:

1, "Shed for many" doesn't necessarily mean a number less than all. If you have a total of 1000 dollars, and you spend it all on a TV, you can rightly say "I spent a lot of dollars on that TV." You did spend a lot, and you also spent it all. Both can be true.

2. Jesus did indeed give himself for the church, but saying that doesn't necessarily mean that He DIDN'T ALSO give himself for the unbelievers. It depends on the context. If you're preaching to a group of Baptists about the atonement, you can rightly tell them "Jesus gave His life for you Baptists." But that doesn't necessarily mean "ONLY for you Baptists." If you preach to the Methodists next week, you can rightly tell them "Jesus gave His life for you Methodists."

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Now are you ever going to give me an honest answer why you believe that God would send anyone to hell if Christ PAID for every single sin for every single person?

My answers have been honest ones. It's funny that you think they were dishonest answers. If I pay to get you into a movie but it's a movie that you don't like so you don't watch it, I still paid the price for it. Whether you get the benefit of it is up to you, not me.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

1, "Shed for many" doesn't necessarily mean a number less than all.

If I said there are "many" people who follow Christ would you take my statement to mean that every single person follows Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

2. Jesus did indeed give himself for the church, but saying that doesn't necessarily mean that He DIDN'T ALSO give himself for the unbelievers.

But does the text say that he gave himself for the unbelievers in this verse?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

My answers have been honest ones. It's funny that you think they were dishonest answers. If I pay to get you into a movie but it's a movie that you don't like so you don't watch it, I still paid the price for it. Whether you get the benefit of it is up to you, not me.

Jeff I am sure that you see the problem but you haven't told me what is the basis for sending anyone to hell if every single sin for every single person has been paid for.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I believe "all men" in Romans5:18 is a reference to all men--as is all the verses that point to that:

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Great. Now lets start at Romans 5:1 and note that Paul starts the verse off with "therefore" which means that he is summing up what he had just talked about in the prior chapter which was justification by faith.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

In verse 1 does justification apply to every single person OR to those who come to Christ by faith?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Lets use a real world example of a debt that you own such as a house and you have a huge mortgage that you are unable to pay because you lost your ***. You have a friend that is willing and wants to help you. Below are two different scenarios.

1. The friend offers to pay your debt off completely but he does not do so because you refuse his offer.

2. The friend pays off your debt completely.

In scenario 1 the offer was made but the debt was not paid and you are still on the hook for every penny because you did not accept his offer. In scenario 2 the debt was paid in full and whether you accepted his offer or not you do not owe the bank a dime because your debt was paid in full. Which scenario best describes your view of the atonement, scenario 1 or scenario 2?

Scenario 3: The friend pre-paid the cost of an awesome mansion for you, a long time ago, so if you want to live in it you just need to do what He wants you to do and you will end up living in it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Scenario 3: The friend pre-paid the cost of an awesome mansion for you, a long time ago, so if you want to live in it you just need to do what He wants you to do and you will end up living in it.

And in Scenario 3 that you propose the debt for his house was NOT paid. Jeff I am sure you realize the problem here but you are trying to side skirt around it because you have no good answer for me.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And in Scenario 3 that you propose the debt for his house was NOT paid. Jeff I am sure you realize the problem here but you are trying to side skirt around it because you have no good answer for me.

The house being pre-paid does not rule out conditions that could be set in order that one might inherit the house. The person who pre-paid for the house could set any conditions he wished to--he was the one who paid for it.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The house being pre-paid does not rule out conditions that could be set in order that one might inherit the house. The person who pre-paid for the house could set any conditions he wished to--he was the one who paid for it.

True. Also true is that Billy's question was not about debts. It was

"what is the basis for sending anyone to hell if every single sin for every single person has been paid for."

And we have answered that question. For any who missed it, the answer, again, is:

The basis is that even though Jesus paid the price (atoned) for all of our sins, it does not guarantee we will all get eternal life because no one forces us to benefit from that payment. We can make the atonement "of no effect" (I think the Bible mentions this) if that's what we want to do.

This isn't that complicated, Billy. It's FAR simpler to understand than, say, Trinitarianism. My kids can understand the concept of someone paying for your movie ticket but you choosing to waste it by not going to the movie.

THAT, AGAIN, is the BASIS for the idea that Jesus could have atoned for every single sin for every single person, yet some of them (or even all of them) could miss out on eternal life.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The house being pre-paid does not rule out conditions that could be set in order that one might inherit the house. The person who pre-paid for the house could set any conditions he wished to--he was the one who paid for it.

But the house debt was NOT paid in that scenario. You or Jeff don't have a good answer for me do you? DB don't you see the problem yet?