The washing of regeneration and water baptism

[RealFakeHair]

nrajeffreturns; I can't believe someone wrote this who is a follower of Joseph Smith jr. (So Calvin was a false teacher who the Bible warned us to beware of because he would decimate the flock like a wolf in sheep's clothing? )

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

nrajeffreturns; I can't believe someone wrote this who is a follower of Joseph Smith jr. (So Calvin was a false teacher who the Bible warned us to beware of because he would decimate the flock like a wolf in sheep's clothing? )

You can't believe it because you think Joseph Smith was a Calvinist?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

You can't believe it because you think Joseph Smith was a Calvinist?

Is that one of his wives first or last name?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Is that one of his wives first or last name?

It's your husband's first or last name.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So Calvin was a false teacher who the Bible warned us to beware of because he would decimate the flock like a wolf in sheep's clothing?

What specific subject do you want to discuss? The providence of God?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

The answer, of course, is the simple tautology: You WON'T choose anything other than the choices that you WILL make.

Are you free to change anything that is already planned for you to do tomorrow?

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

This is one of Calvin's big logical mistakes: He jumped to the incorrect conclusion that if God can see into the future, just like a prophet can, and if God is omnipotent, then God forces us to make the choices we will make, and we have no freedom to choose any thought or action other than what God has decreed that we will do. Which makes us all mere puppets, with God's hand inside us, directing everything we do, and we are unable to act in opposition to that script that God wrote for us.

Are you aware that some LDS scholars believe that if God is omniscient then that means that you do not have free will?

How does God know what you will do before you even do it especially given the fact that you believe that God is not in control of world events (i.e. free will/free agency)

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What specific subject do you want to discuss? The providence of God?

I want to keep discussing the belief that Christ was so weak or so unloving that He only died for a fraction of the human race. If that belief turns out to be incorrect, then it could be argued that people who have that belief have "another Jesus." And that might be important.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I want to keep discussing the belief that Christ was so weak or so unloving that He only died for a fraction of the human race. If that belief turns out to be incorrect, then it could be argued that people who have that belief have "another Jesus." And that might be important.

Straw man. Nobody said Christ was weak or unloving. That is something that you made up. As we have discussed already you have no good answer for your position which is that Jesus PAID for every sin for every person because there would be no basis for sending anyone to Hell.

BTW I take it you would rather avoid discussing God's providence?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Straw man. Nobody said Christ was weak or unloving.

It seems to be where your belief leads, if you believe that Jesus only died for a small percentage of us. There has to be a reason why He DIDN'T die for the large percentage of us. Possible reasons include:

1. He was ABLE to die for them, but He didn't care enough about those people to give them a chance at salvation.

2. He WANTED to give them the same chance that you have at salvation, but He wasn't ABLE to.

3. He was neither willing NOR able to provide that chance.

Which answer is the correct one?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

It seems to be where your belief leads,

So you just make up a straw man argument? I thought that you were above that but I guess not.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

1. He was ABLE to die for them, but He didn't care enough about those people to give them a chance at salvation.

God could have chosen to saved none (which is exactly what happened to the angels who sinned), some of us, or all of us.

All people have a chance at salvation. First they could obey the commandments and be saved, Second they can place their faith in Christ to save them from their sins.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

2. He WANTED to give them the same chance that you have at salvation, but He wasn't ABLE to.

Everyone has a chance at salvation.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

3. He was neither willing NOR able to provide that chance.

Again everyone has a chance at salvation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

It seems to be where your belief leads, if you believe that Jesus only died for a small percentage of us. There has to be a reason why He DIDN'T die for the large percentage of us. Possible reasons include:

Let's use a real world example. Let's say you break the law. You are completely guilty of the crime. You go before the judge. This is the scenario for the following choices that the judge could make.

The judge could
1. Punish everyone guilty of the crime that they have committed.
2. Punish some of those who are guilty but in his mercy let some go despite their guilt.
3. Let every single person who committed a crime go free and not be punished.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you just make up a straw man argument?

Seeing the logical conclusion where your belief ends up, isn't a straw man.

God could have chosen to saved none (which is exactly what happened to the angels who sinned), some of us, or all of us.

Jesus could have chosen to die for NOBODY. Do you have a guess as to why He didn't choose that? It's because His Father so loved ALL OF US that He gave His only begotten Son to die for ALL OF US. And Jesus, being a loyal, obedient Son, obeyed His Father's will because He loves all of us, too. If you make it through the NT without understanding that a major focus of Jesus' whole life was on loving one's neighbors, both friends and enemies, then you have missed a major revelation about Jesus.

All people have a chance at salvation.

How can you believe that and also believe that Jesus only died for a fraction of us? If He only died for 10% of humanity, then where does this chance at salvation come from, for the other 90%? Huh?

First they could obey the commandments and be saved

False. Obeying the Law given to Moses wasn't sufficient to save anyone.

Everyone has a chance at salvation.

Your belief does not allow that to be true. If Jesus died only for the elect, then He doomed everyone else to having no hope. JESUS IS humanity's ONLY HOPE FOR SALVATION. That's one of the biggest claims of Christianity. Not sure how you failed to learn about it. Maybe you should come back to church, or have the missionaries come over to re-teach you about how without Christ we have no hope.

Again everyone has a chance at salvation.

Again, that is only true if Christ died for all mankind. You are missing one of the biggest lessons of Christianity.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Seeing the logical conclusion where your belief ends up, isn't a straw man.

It isn't the logical conclusion and what you said it isn't something that I believe nor is it something that any Christian I know believes. Rather you simply make something up and p*** it off as truth. No wonder you are still stuck in your false religion.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Jesus could have chosen to die for NOBODY. Do you have a guess as to why He didn't choose that? It's because His Father so loved ALL OF US that He gave His only begotten Son to die for ALL OF US. And

He didn't die for any of the angels that sinned. Are you going to accuse God of being unloving and unfair?

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

How can you believe that and also believe that Jesus only died for a fraction of us?

1. People can choose to perfectly obey the commandments and be saved without Jesus.
2. People can choose to place their faith in Christ. The Bible says that anyone who trusts in Christ will be saved.

Jeff saying that some don't have a choice to place their faith in Christ is not what I believe so this is yet another straw man argument on your part.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

False. Obeying the Law given to Moses wasn't sufficient to save anyone.

Jeff that is not what the Bible teaches.

Romans 2:13*For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Let's use a real world example. Let's say you break the law. You are completely guilty of the crime. You go before the judge. This is the scenario for the following choices that the judge could make.

The judge could
1. Punish everyone guilty of the crime that they have committed.
2. Punish some of those who are guilty but in his mercy let some go despite their guilt.
3. Let every single person who committed a crime go free and not be punished.

Jeff if you break the law and a judge punishes you for your crime is the judge being unfair?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The Bible teaches that Jesus gave his life for his sheep, but you seem to be forgetting the part where I have said that the Bible also teaches that ANYONE who comes to Christ and places their trust in Him will be saved. Those who reject Christ do so based on their own choice and they are responsible for that choice.

But if God did not shed His Blood for them--how could they be saved? Billyray--you believe that God only died for the few--and only those have an opportunity to be saved. The Bible teaches that God died for all men--and all men will be judged according to their works.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But if God did not shed His Blood for them--how could they be saved? Billyray--you believe that God only died for the few--and only those have an opportunity to be saved. The Bible teaches that God died for all men--and all men will be judged according to their works.

Romans 10:13*for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It isn't the logical conclusion

Actually, it is, if John 3:16 is true.

and what you said it isn't something that I believe

You MUST believe that there are some people who Jesus doesn't love, if you believe that there some of us who He refused to die for. See John 3:16 for proof.

nor is it something that any Christian I know believes.

Maybe none of the Christians you know has considered the ramifications of believing that Jesus refused to die for some of us.

Rather you simply make something up and p*** it off as truth.

You are the one who is making up the idea that Jesus refused to die for most of the human race, and then you are trying to p*** that off as truth.

No wonder you are still stuck in your false religion.

1. People can choose to perfectly obey the commandments and be saved without Jesus.

So you actually believe that Jesus isn't the only way to salvation. So did Jesus lie when He claimed that He was the way?
Are you sure you're a Christian? I thought the belief that Jesus is the only way by which humans can be saved, was pretty much one of those essential doctrines of Christianity....

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Obeying the Law given to Moses wasn't sufficient to save anyone.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff that is not what the Bible teaches.
Romans 2:13*For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Then tell us: how many people have been saved without Jesus' help? I think you're on shaky ground, claiming that Jesus isn't necessary for salvation. That doesn't seem like it would be accepted as a Christian doctrine by any group of Christians except maybe the Unitarians....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I think you're on shaky ground, claiming that Jesus isn't necessary for salvation. That doesn't seem like it would be accepted as a Christian doctrine by any group of Christians except maybe the Unitarians....

Romans 2:13*For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

I am not on shaky ground at all Jeff because that is exactly what the Bible teaches. So why do you say that a person can't be saved without the sacrifice of Jesus IF they live a perfect life--obedient to ALL of the commandments?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am not on shaky ground at all Jeff because that is exactly what the Bible teaches.

How many Christians do you think will agree with your claim that Jesus isn't the only way by which we can be saved?

How many Christians will agree with your claim that the Bible teaches that Jesus isn't necessary for salvation?

And you thought the LDS were a cult....consider your beliefs here. I think some Evangelicals might think that you are in a weirder cult of beliefs than they think the LDS are in.....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

How many Christians do you think will agree with your claim that Jesus isn't the only way by which we can be saved?

I noticed that you didn't answer my question.

So why do you say that a person can't be saved without the sacrifice of Jesus IF they live a perfect life--obedient to ALL of the commandments?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

How many Christians do you think will agree with your claim that Jesus isn't the only way by which we can be saved?

How many Christians will agree with your claim that the Bible teaches that Jesus isn't necessary for salvation?

Why do you think that Christians believe that their salvation is based on placing their faith in Christ rather than what Mormons teach which is a works based salvation?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I noticed that you didn't answer my question.

Is there any answer I can give that will make your claim (that Jesus isn't necessary for salvation, and that the Bible teaches such a thing) seem non-heretical?

So why do you say that a person can't be saved without the sacrifice of Jesus IF they live a perfect life--obedient to ALL of the commandments?

One reason is that none of us has the inherent power to resurrect ourselves. It is ONLY thanks to Jesus' resurrection that resurrection is possible, and certain, for us. Therefore, even if we could be 100% obedient to 100% of the commandments 100% of the time, Jesus is still necessary for our salvation.

PLUS, the only way any of us could hope to be 100% obedient to 100% of the commandments 100% of the time, is with Jesus' help. So AGAIN, Jesus is NECESSARY for our salvation.

There is at least one other reason, but the bottom line is that it's a heresy to say that Jesus isn't necessary for our salvation. And if someone were to post at CARM that "I know someone who claims that Jesus isn't necessary for our salvation," I bet your pals such as Russ, Catherine, BrianH, Theo, Pat, etc. would ALL say that anyone who believes that Jesus isn't necessary for our salvation, is not a Christian.

Wanna test my theory out?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

You MUST believe that there are some people who Jesus doesn't love, if you believe that there some of us who He refused to die for

He didn't die for any of the angels that sinned. Are you going to accuse God of being unloving and unfair?