The tally of Biblical quotes

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So was Abram ungodly on the day God told him to slaughter his son? Was that the day Abram became godly through obedience and doing a work? And do you agree with Billy that Jesus is not the only way to salvation?

Look at the p***age again where it says that God saw Abram's faith as righteousness and see that it was done LONG before he was ever commanded to take Issac to the mountain for sacrifice. When Abram was made righteous in God's eyes did that not include the fact that he was made obedient in God's eyes at the same time? How could a man be made righteous and be considered disobedient at the same time? Therefore Abram was made righteous (obedience) by God's grace through faith the same way that all the people of God through the ages have been made perfect before Him. I agree with Billy that Jesus is the only Way to salvation. That good works are NOT the WAY. We receive the Way to God, the Truth of God. and the Life of God as a free gift by God's grace through faith in Jesus.. That is unlike the LDS that have been teaching here that obedience and personal righteousness (self righteousness) is the way to God and Jesus is only there only to aid them in that pursuit. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Look at the p***age again where it says that God saw Abram's faith as righteousness and see that it was done LONG before he was ever commanded to take Issac to the mountain for sacrifice.When Abram was made righteous in God's eyes did that not include the fact that he was made obedient in God's eyes at the same time? How could a man be made righteous and be considered disobedient at the same time?

That was my point: How does God know who is righteous and who isn't? Based on how OBEDIENT they are.

I agree with Billy that Jesus is the only Way to salvation.

You mean you agree with the LDS on that. Billy was saying that Jesus is not the only way.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

That was my point: How does God know who is righteous and who isn't? Based on how OBEDIENT they are.


You mean you agree with the LDS on that. Billy was saying that Jesus is not the only way.

Technically, there are two ways to stand in the day of Judgment, Jeff. One way is to have been totally perfect in one's nature and to have never committed an actual sin - this is not possible, which is why (No. 2) Christ had to come to fulfill the Law on our behalf. He Who knew NO sin, became sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Think that over.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Billy was saying that Jesus is not the only way.

Jeff it amazes me how you try and distort what I believe. But I have come to expect that from you.

"Paul and Perfect Obedience to the Law: An Evaluation of the View of E. P. Sanders"--Thomas R. Schreiner
​http://www.sbts.edu/theology/faculty/thomas-schreiner/

Conclusion. . .
Paul did consistently teach that justification cannot be obtained via law because no one can keep the law perfectly. Paul’s basicargument is this:

(1) One must obey the law perfectly to be saved.
(2) No one obeys the law perfectly.
(3) Therefore, no one can be saved by the works of the law.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff it amazes me how you try and distort what I believe.

Would you say that your level of amazement is about equal to how amazed LDS people are by your attempts to distort what they believe?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

That was my point: How does God know who is righteous and who isn't? Based on how OBEDIENT they are.


You mean you agree with the LDS on that. Billy was saying that Jesus is not the only way.

God is God.. He knows us better than we know us. he knows what we will do and how we will react long before we make our decisions on any subject. He has known if we would accept His GIFT of life long before creation was ever formed. Since not one of us is obedient there would be nothing to be done with us other then to cast us into the lake of fire and be lost if obedience were the way by which we are to be judged. Not one of us has come up to the level of obedience required to deserve life. Matthew 5:48 stands there as a command that would condemn each of us and demand our ****ation if salvation was by obedience.

I mean BILLY. Billy holds the Biblical doctrine that we are ALL SINNERS AND WITHOUT THE IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS OF JESUS ON ALL WHO BELIEVE we would be ****ed to the lake of fire. All the work done by God in the person of Jesus, and the reward of that work given to all who trust Him.. No matter how hard you try you still sin.. Maybe you are a lot stronger than me and don't sin hourly, but according to God's word you still sin. Even the Apostle Paul sinned. You can't tell you that you don't without again sinning.. Lies are sins.. Hey let me know that by your own will power you start being obedient yo Matthew 5:48.. I will want you as King and absolute ruler of the WORLD.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Would you say that your level of amazement is about equal to how amazed LDS people are by your attempts to distort what they believe?

Show me one doctrine that we have distorted.. I learned what I know about mormonism from MORMONS. In reading the standard works attending Sunday School, Priesthood meetings, MIA, Seminary, Sacrament Meetings, and conferences (Ward, Stake, and General).. I will grant you that there are a lot of different ideas in the LDS church on doctrines. But unless the President of the church judges them as inaccurate or out and out perverted they have as much authority as what you hold to be absolute truth.. There is NOTHING that is mormon doctrine. from the first vision to the final judgment at the end of days. There are as many different doctrines in mormonism as there are mormons.. The sad thing is they are all based on the lies of Joseph Smith.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

God is God.. He knows us better than we know us.

He also knows that it wasn't HIM who created you and all other baby humans as evil beings.

If God is good, then He didn't create any evil beings. So your Calvinism is wrong and unbiblical right there.

Since not one of us is obedient

So you're saying that you were not being obedient when you turned against LDS doctrines?

I mean BILLY.

Billy says that there is a way other than Jesus that leads to eternal life.

Even the Apostle Paul sinned.

That doesn't prove that your belief--that God created all human babies evil--is correct.

Lies are sins.

If that is true, then there's a whole lotta anti-LDS folks who have sinned.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Would you say that your level of amazement is about equal to how amazed LDS people are by your attempts to distort what they believe?

I don't distort what LDS believe unlike you who distorts what I believe and since I have told you multiple times you still do it which makes me believe you are doing it on purpose.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If God is good, then He didn't create any evil beings. So your Calvinism is wrong and unbiblical right there.

Calvinism doesn't teach that God created "evil beings".

Genesis 1:31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So you're saying that you were not being obedient when you turned against LDS doctrines?

Sure he was being obedient when he left Mormonism for Christianity.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Billy says that there is a way other than Jesus that leads to eternal life.

"Paul and Perfect Obedience to the Law: An Evaluation of the View of E. P. Sanders"--Thomas R. Schreiner
​http://www.sbts.edu/theology/faculty/thomas-schreiner/

Conclusion. . .
Paul did consistently teach that justification cannot be obtained via law because no one can keep the law perfectly. Paul’s basicargument is this:

(1) One must obey the law perfectly to be saved.
(2) No one obeys the law perfectly.
(3) Therefore, no one can be saved by the works of the law.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If that is true, then there's a whole lotta anti-LDS folks who have sinned.

We ALL sin Jeff. The Bible states this very clearly, yet you reject what it says.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't distort what LDS believe ...

Then how do you explain all the amazement from the LDS at your distortions of what they believe?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Calvinism doesn't teach that God created "evil beings".

Did God create you?
Are you evil?
Was there ever a time in your existence when you WEREN'T evil?

Then you believe that God created you evil.

Sure he was being obedient when he left Mormonism for Christianity.

But he said that not one of us is obedient . Are you saying he wasn't telling the truth?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Did God create you?
Are you evil?
Was there ever a time in your existence when you WEREN'T evil?

Then you believe that God created you evil.


But he said that not one of us is obedient . Are you saying he wasn't telling the truth?

God created man and said "it was good." Men turned from God, and all men fell "in" Adam. Therefore the seed of Adam is born tainted by sin. God creates the spirit within men, but when joined to the fallen human within the womb, the spirit itself is born dead to God and needs to be reborn. Jesus taught this Jeff.

[nrajeffreturns]

I would like to see Billy's answers to the questions:

1. Did God create you? Y/N
2. Are you evil? Y/N
3. Was there ever a time in your existence when you WEREN'T evil? Y/N

[Apologette]

Jeff, the word is not "evil." The word is "fallen." In Adam ALL men fell. But in Christ we are made alive. Break it down. If you are not in Christ you are still fallen and subject to false doctrines, which are, by the way, evil.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Then how do you explain all the amazement from the LDS at your distortions of what they believe?

Jeff you are being dishonest. Do you really think that this type of behavior helps your support of Mormonism?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I would like to see Billy's answers to the questions:

1. Did God create you? Y/N
2. Are you evil? Y/N
3. Was there ever a time in your existence when you WEREN'T evil? Y/N

We were all created by God. And we are all sinners. You are trying to blame God for man's sins. We all make choices and we are all responsible for the choices that we make. But God has given us the opportunity to accept Christ and place our faith in Him for salvation.

[nrajeffreturns]

So by refusing to answer the questions and instead offering the above, you're trying to be evasive and deceptive and hide your beliefs. Do you really think such dishonesty will convert people to your Calvinism?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

"My dream and hope and aspiration: Members of the 1stP and the Q12 are walked out of the [Church Office Building] or their homes in handcuffs for tax evasion, racketeering, money-laundering,...Add the gender discrimination and fraud suits that many will pile onto the criminal charges, and I think 2013-14 just might be a banner moment. Maybe I'm dreaming. But some of us are working on it."
—MormonThink's second managing editor, posting as "Jesus Smith" on Recovery from Mormonism, December 26, 2012. . .

So you have nothing thus far from any Christians on this board? Yet you made the following claim.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Would you say that your level of amazement is about equal to how amazed LDS people are by your attempts to distort what they believe?

[nrajeffreturns]

Um, Billy, you are confusing two different threads. Go check out the context of each, and the posts I was responding to in each, so you will know what's going on.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Um, Billy, you are confusing two different threads. Go check out the context of each, and the posts I was responding to in each, so you will know what's going on.

Your quotes are fair game no matter which thread they are in especially given the fact that it is relevant to the discussion. You were huffing and puffing about how I distorted what LDS believe but you have yet to give me an example. Perhaps you should ask yourself why that is. In fact we haven't really talked that much about Mormonism lately because you enjoy discussing Calvinism. But so do I because it is supported by the Bible and Mormonism is not and that probably really irks you.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Your quotes are fair game no matter which thread they are in

That is a false statement and shows your disingenuousness, which continues to be a disappointment.
My response to Apologette's request

("Give me an example of how they misrepresent the Church")

was OBVIOUSLY referring to the the people who run MormonThink .

Have you really reached such a level of desperation that you feel you have to try deceptions like the one you just tried?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

That is a false statement and shows your disingenuousness, which continues to be a disappointment.
My response to Apologette's request

("Give me an example of how they misrepresent the Church")

was OBVIOUSLY referring to the the people who run MormonThink .

Have you really reached such a level of desperation that you feel you have to try deceptions like the one you just tried?

I don't believe the Church was misrepresented - why not PROVE to us where the huge income of your cult goes? Where? You don't even know Jeff, do you? Until you can prove otherwise, all you have is a opinion as do those who hold another opinion. Your cult keeps finances a secret, AS DO ALL CULTS!

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Apologette

I don't believe the Church was misrepresented

That is hardly a surprise.

Until you can prove otherwise, all you have is a opinion

So the accused have to prove their innocence or else they must be branded guilty? Is the Spanish Inquisition back in town?

And how about we discuss actual misrepresentation of LDS doctrine, such as Billy's claim that LDS have a works-BASED soteriology?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

That is hardly a surprise.


So the accused have to prove their innocence or else they must be branded guilty? Is the Spanish Inquisition back in town?

And how about we discuss actual misrepresentation of LDS doctrine, such as Billy's claim that LDS have a works-BASED soteriology?

The question is, how have Christians misrepresented the Church? Have I? Do I not always post connected links to verify what I'm saying.? And of course Mormons have a works soteriology, look at D&C 132, where your "god" says he judges by works, not faith.