Born spiritually dead

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

"Faith without works is dead".

And dead faith = no faith.

So, another way to describe your belief is: You believe that salvation is BASED on NO FAITH, because you believe in faith-ALONE-based salvation. (Your mischaracterizations of LDS doctrine, where you say it's works-BASED, indicate that you don't believe that obedience plays any role whatsoever as an ingredient in the salvation recipe)

So, since faith alone = dead faith, and dead faith = no faith, then using your reasoning, we must conclude that you believe that salvation is based on NO FAITH.

Which is unbiblical. And unChristian.

Therefore, Billy, if you insist on using your reasoning, you admit that you are not a Christian.



NOW: DO YOU STILL WANT TO KEEP PLAYING YOUR GAME? You are losing, badly. What kind of person would want to keep digging himself deeper into such a hole?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And dead faith = no faith.

So, another way to describe your belief is: You believe that salvation is BASED on NO FAITH, because you believe in faith-ALONE-based salvation. (Your mischaracterizations of LDS doctrine, where you say it's works-BASED, indicate that you don't believe that obedience plays any role whatsoever as an ingredient in the salvation recipe)

So, since faith alone = dead faith, and dead faith = no faith, then using your reasoning, we must conclude that you believe that salvation is based on NO FAITH.

Which is unbiblical. And unChristian.

Therefore, Billy, if you insist on using your reasoning, you admit that you are not a Christian.



NOW: DO YOU STILL WANT TO KEEP PLAYING YOUR GAME? You are losing, badly. What kind of person would want to keep digging himself deeper into such a hole?

And faith in Joseph Smith who married the wives of Mormon men he had conveniently sent away on missions is "saving faith?" What kind of good works does that produce?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And dead faith = no faith.

So, another way to describe your belief is: You believe that salvation is BASED on NO FAITH, because you believe in faith-ALONE-based salvation. (Your mischaracterizations of LDS doctrine, where you say it's works-BASED, indicate that you don't believe that obedience plays any role whatsoever as an ingredient in the salvation recipe)

So, since faith alone = dead faith, and dead faith = no faith, then using your reasoning, we must conclude that you believe that salvation is based on NO FAITH.

Which is unbiblical. And unChristian.

Therefore, Billy, if you insist on using your reasoning, you admit that you are not a Christian.



NOW: DO YOU STILL WANT TO KEEP PLAYING YOUR GAME? You are losing, badly. What kind of person would want to keep digging himself deeper into such a hole?

James told us what living faith is.. It is a refusal to show partiality. It is seeing to the care of the naked, the hungry, and the homeless. No where is baptism, work for the dead, marriage, or enduring to the end in RIGHTEOUSNESS, see as the works that manifest saving faith. And whose sees these acts of faith that James said are manifest in saving faith? He said show ME your faith without your works and I will show YOU my faith by my works.. Just where in that is there showing God by our works that we deserve His grace? His gives His grace to all who believe in Jesus through that faith and NOT BY WORKS. That is Gospel unless you are again willing to deny the scripture..

Christian believe the scripture and hold that we are saved by His grace through faith plus NOTHING.. That it is simply NOT OF WORKS, period. Nothing you can do, not baptism, not keeping commandments. NOTHING but faith in Jesus is the way for anyone to gain the salvation of God, NOTHING.. It isn't up to you to determine what is dead faith and what is Faith. How can you judge Billy? Do you knpw what actions he has taken to help those damaged by earthquakes, OR VIOLENT storms? No you don't know.. Are you even aware of his level of obedience to God's commandments? No? I see you being just the kind of person James commands us not to be.. You judge others on their outside appearance and put down the poor of spirit among us. Good work.. It's no wonder that ALL LDS GAs are rich and have special seats in the front in all your conferences.. You ignore all of James 2 except for 2 verses.. This kind of behavior shows that Jesus is not included in your church nor in your heart..

If you believe that waving a warning flag of destruction that lays ahead is a game then you need to find a real playground.. Here we deal in life and death, Eternal life and death IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And dead faith = no faith.

Dead faith = No faith

A person who does not have faith will not be saved. A person who has faith will be saved.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

You believe that salvation is BASED on NO FAITH, because you believe in faith-ALONE-based salvation.

No Jeff I believe that salvation comes to those who have faith in Christ and this is what the Bible teaches. Those who are saved naturally produce works which is what James in teaching.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Dead faith = No faith

Right, and faith alone = dead faith, which is what your basis for salvation is. So you have a no faith-based salvation gospel. Again, I am just playing your game by the rules you chose to use against the LDS, when you decided to brand them as having a works-based salvation even though their REAL basis for salvation is Christ's atonement, and obedience is one ingredient that makes that atonement have efficacy for a person but is not the BASIS.

A person who does not have faith will not be saved.

And a person like you who has faith alone will not be saved because faith alone is dead faith, and dead faith is NO FAITH.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

faith alone = dead faith

Dead faith = No faith

Faith alone = Faith

Those who have faith will be saved. Those who do not have faith will not be saved. Those who have faith will naturally produce works which is what James is talking about. You don't do works to earn faith or salvation. A perfect example of this is the thief on the cross who had faith and was saved despite having any works.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And a person like you who has faith alone will not be saved because faith alone is dead faith, and dead faith is NO FAITH.

The thief has faith alone and was saved. Right?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And dead faith = no faith.

LDS Article of Faith 4
We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

"first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ"

Jeff is this real faith since it precedes any works?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

LDS Article of Faith 4
We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

"first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ"

Jeff is this real faith since it precedes any works?

Billyray--you have already asked this question before--and the answer is the same. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is dead faith unless acted upon by obedience to Jesus Christ. It's just as James stated:


James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Faith without obedience to Jesus Christ will not save anyone from ****ation. Even the devils believe.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is dead faith unless acted upon by obedience to Jesus Christ. . .

LDS Article of Faith
We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, [DEAD FAITH] in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Would you agree that "the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, [DEAD FAITH] in the Lord Jesus Christ" since it precedes any works?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Right, and faith alone = dead faith, which is what your basis for salvation is. So you have a no faith-based salvation gospel. Again, I am just playing your game by the rules you chose to use against the LDS, when you decided to brand them as having a works-based salvation even though their REAL basis for salvation is Christ's atonement, and obedience is one ingredient that makes that atonement have efficacy for a person but is not the BASIS.

And a person like you who has faith alone will not be saved because faith alone is dead faith, and dead faith is NO FAITH.

The whole point you are missing is it is God Who gives you the faith unto salvation:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God Eph. 2

Saving faith, then is a gift. And to whom is it a gift?

Eph. 1: 1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

Okay, Jeff, break that down. You are dead in your transgressions and sins, craving the things of the flesh; All of us have been likewise dead, in the same hopeless way! But God loved us, and so has brought to life those who were dead. They have placed their faith in Christ, and have been given the saving faith necessary for belief.

Now you can mock this out if you want, but it is the clear teaching of Scripture. You can receive it, or continue to follow Joseph Smith who taught that everybody is spiritually alive with "free agency." He simply denied the Scriptures, twisting them to his own ****ation - he was so spiritually dead that he lied, sexually molested teenagers, and said he'd be your god. You are following a corpse.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Saving faith, then is a gift.

Could you explain to us what the difference between faith and saving faith is?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you explain to us what the difference between faith and saving faith is?

I don't make that distinction - you did. And, in fact, I have no intention of engaging in an obsessive need to attack Christian doctrine.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Apologette

I don't make that distinction - you did. And, in fact, I have no intention of engaging in an obsessive need to attack Christian doctrine.

What is it about the scriptures that you don't find as Christian doctrine?

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Do you consider dead faith--- saving faith?

Originally Posted by Apologette View Post----Saving faith, then is a gift.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Do you consider dead faith--- saving faith?

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Do you consider dead faith--- saving faith?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Could you explain for us how you are using Romans4 in relation to James2?

Billyray--Christ justified all men of life due to His Atonement--the ungodly included:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Paul's example was of Abraham--could you explain the following, in relationship to your argument:


Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



Could you explain to us, if Abraham was given God's grace independent of his works--then how is the above true? Paul was a master of the scriptures--he certainly was aware of what the scriptures stated.

Could it be--that when Paul stated "works"--"works of the law"---that he was referring to the Mosaic Law--especially seeing that Abraham lived under the gospel of Jesus Christ--not the Mosaic Law?



Works of the Law----- http://www.biblestudytools.com/dicti...f-the-law.html



The term erga nomou ("works of the Law") is used by Paul to denote deeds prescribed by the Mosaic Law ( Rom 2:15 ; Romans 3:20 Romans 3:27 Romans 3:28 ; Gal 2:16 ; Galatians 3:2 Galatians 3:5 Galatians 3:10 ). Although not found in the Old Testament or later rabbinic literature, this phrase appears in Qumran literature (maase torah,4QFlor 1:1-7; cf. 1QS 6:18; 1 QpHab 7:11). At times Paul shortens the phrase and uses erga, "works" ( Romans 4:2 Romans 4:6 ; Romans 9:11 Romans 9:32 ; 11:6 ), referring to a mode of relationship to the Law and set in contrast to faith in Christ




Paul's "worketh not" was a reference to the Mosaic Law, not obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ:

Romans 4:12----King James Version (KJV)

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Paul's example was of Abraham--could you explain the following, in relationship to your argument:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 5:5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Paul's "worketh not" was a reference to the Mosaic Law, not obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ:

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the LAW are just before God, but the doers of the L A W shall be justified.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Dead faith = No faith

Faith alone = Faith

No, faith alone, since it hath not works, is DEAD, because it's ALONE. That is what the BIBLE teaches, anyhow. You can reject the Bible and embrace Calvinism if you want to, but you will have to stop claiming that your beliefs come only from the Bible.

And since you already agree that dead faith = no faith, then faith alone, being dead, is no faith.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

No, faith alone, since it hath not works, is DEAD, because it's ALONE. That is what the BIBLE teaches, anyhow. You can reject the Bible and embrace Calvinism if you want to, but you will have to stop claiming that your beliefs come only from the Bible.

And since you already agree that dead faith = no faith, then faith alone, being dead, is no faith.

As soon as mormonism brings forth the fruits that James points out as the works of God that a living faith bring men to do I will believe that mormonism is sitting in such a faith.. I have already pointed out that only the rich in their fine cloths are brought to the best seats in their conferences. I have never even see one poor person in their rags made welcome in those meetings.. It is FACT that the LDS church offers less than 1% of their income to aiding the poor and those touched by disaster (Business Week; Ryan T Cragun, Stephanie Teager, Desmond Vega). The United Methodists offer over 25% of their income to such need and they do it with NO FANFARE that I see on TV (especially KSL, the LDS church's own station) when they send their "offerings" to the poor.. They did this when they sent supplies to Haiti and then again as then sent supplies to Japan. There in no attempt in mormonism to live by the call of James to show forth their faith though good works, NONE! The Church on the other hand has been in Haiti for over a century, building, offering heath care, and educating the people. Agencies such as "Food for the poor" and "Samaritan's Purse" still are in all areas of the world that cry under extreme pain of want. Where is the LDS church in the Sudan? Not there!! Too dangerous!! Thank God He has called His true servants to be His hands in easing the pain of those peoples.. Mormonism is NOT living by the call of James to do the works of God. They, and by extension you, fail to keep the call of James in the second chapter of His epistle.. You must not have faith because those works James speaks of are not present in LDS actions.. No works, no faith! IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

So was that long diatribe supposed to refute the idea that faith alone, being dead, is no faith?

Because if so, I didn't see it.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So was that long diatribe supposed to refute the idea that faith alone, being dead, is no faith?

Because if so, I didn't see it.

Why don't you bring forth the works James says show saving faith and then you can use James 2 to support your teachings of salvation by works.. till then you show no faith and have no works.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So was that long diatribe supposed to refute the idea that faith alone, being dead, is no faith?
.

Jeff either a person has faith or he does not. Those who have faith will be saved and those who do not have faith will not be saved. The thief on the cross had faith and was saved yet he did not have works.

James was teaching that those who have faith will naturally produce works. Not that you have to do works to earn faith.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And since you already agree that dead faith = no faith

Which is exactly what I said, Dead faith = no faith

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

, then faith alone, being dead, is no faith.

The thief had faith and no works and because he had faith he was saved.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Why don't you bring forth the works James says show saving faith

Why don't YOU?

James 1:27
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

If you aren't doing these kinds of things, then you have no faith, and definitely no good works. So you have nothing and you won't be saved.