My New Favorite Quote of WM Forums

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

It really is interesting to see the extremes that Calvinism can take a person's soteriology to. Think, for a minute, of how Judgment Day, Calvinism Style, would go:

God/Jesus/Holy Spirit: "Adolf Hitler, you were responsible for the murder of over 6 million people while on earth. You will spend eternity in hell. Next person, please."

"Fred Johnson, once, at a time when your wife was feeling depressed and unappreciated, you committed the mortal sin of cheering her up by telling her she looked pretty, but she really wasn't that pretty. For that lie, you shall spend eternity in hell with Hitler."

Since you follow a works based salvation you believe that salvation is based on your own works/personal righteousness.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Since you follow a works based salvation you believe that salvation is based on your own works/personal righteousness.

Are you referring to this "works based salvation"?


John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Are you referring to this "works based salvation"?


John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion where exaltation is based on your works/personal righteousness?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Are you referring to this "works based salvation"?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Originally Posted by Billyray

So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion where exaltation is based on your works/personal righteousness?

First--do you believe the above scripture is works-based?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

First--do you believe the above scripture is works-based?

Not at all.

Now I see that you didn't answer my question. So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion where exaltation is based on your works/personal righteousness?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Not at all.
Originally Posted by dberrie2000
First--do you believe the above scripture is works-based?


Now I see that you didn't answer my question. So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion where exaltation is based on your works/personal righteousness?

I am holding my breath here!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Are you referring to this "works based salvation"?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion where exaltation is based on your works/personal righteousness?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---First--do you believe the above scripture is works-based?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Not at all. Now I see that you didn't answer my question. So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion...

According to your beliefs--if those who are judged according to their works in John5:28-29--and that for life or ****ation--is not a works-based religion--then neither is LDS theology works-based. The LDS believe what Christ taught--that all mankind will be judged according to works--and that for His grace unto life or ****ation.

where exaltation is based on your works/personal righteousness?

Eternal life is based on His grace. His grace unto life is based on our obedience to Jesus Christ.


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

According to your beliefs--if those who are judged according to their works in John5:28-29--and that for life or ****ation--is not a works-based religion--then neither is LDS theology works-based.
Eternal life is based on His grace. His grace unto life is based on our obedience to Jesus Christ.

Can you point out where in John 5:28-29 it says "works"?

Again you failed to answer my question. Here it is again for you. So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---According to your beliefs--if those who are judged according to their works in John5:28-29--and that for life or ****ation--is not a works-based religion--then neither is LDS theology works-based. The LDS believe what Christ taught--that all mankind will be judged according to works--and that for His grace unto life or ****ation.

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you point out where in John 5:28-29 it says "works"?

"they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation."

But then--that was the very doctrine of Christ--was it not?


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Obviously--if that is true--faith alone theology is false. But Christ's theology ---being judged according to works, and that for His grace unto life or ****ation---one will find in the LDS church. Billyray--what is found in the Bible NT--one will also find in the LDS church.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

"they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation."

But then--that was the very doctrine of Christ--was it not?

But you didn't point out where it says "works" or "personal righteousness" in John 5:28-29. Did you misread those verses? Perhaps you should go back and read them again.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post----Can you point out where in John 5:28-29 it says "works"?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----"they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation."

But then--that was the very doctrine of Christ--was it not?


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Obviously--if that is true--faith alone theology is false. But Christ's theology ---being judged according to works, and that for His grace unto life or ****ation---one will find in the LDS church. Billyray--what is found in the Bible NT--one will also find in the LDS church.

Originally Posted by Billyray

But you didn't point out where it says "works" or "personal righteousness" in John 5:28-29. Did you misread those verses? Perhaps you should go back and read them again.

Regardless of how many times one reads the Biblical NT--one will find all will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation.

Billyray--that it defies your theology does not interpret to the Bible being written in invisible ink.

I have maintained the faith alone are in denial concerning the doctrines taught in the NT by Jesus and His apostles--and you seem determined to prove my point. If the Bible is true--faith alone theology is false--end of story:


1 Timothy 4:16----King James Version (KJV)


16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

[Billyray]

duplicate post

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Regardless of how many times one reads the Biblical NT--one will find all will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation.

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

But you didn't point out where it says "works" or "personal righteousness" in John 5:28-29.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Regardless of how many times one reads the Biblical NT--one will find all will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation.

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

But you didn't point out where it says "works" or "personal righteousness" in John 5:28-29.

What is it about "they that have done good," you don't consider works?

Christ certainly labeled it works:

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Can you save others by your works?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Regardless of how many times one reads the Biblical NT--one will find all will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation.

Billyray--that it defies your theology does not interpret to the Bible being written in invisible ink.

I have maintained the faith alone are in denial concerning the doctrines taught in the NT by Jesus and His apostles--and you seem determined to prove my point. If the Bible is true--faith alone theology is false--end of story:


1 Timothy 4:16----King James Version (KJV)


16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you save others by your works?

That's a question you might want to reserve for Paul--he is the one who made that statement.

Do you believe it is a false statement?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That's a question you might want to reserve for Paul--he is the one who made that statement.

So what is the answer? Can you save others when you do works?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Regardless of how many times one reads the Biblical NT--one will find all will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation.

Billyray--that it defies your theology does not interpret to the Bible being written in invisible ink.

I have maintained the faith alone are in denial concerning the doctrines taught in the NT by Jesus and His apostles--and you seem determined to prove my point. If the Bible is true--faith alone theology is false--end of story:


1 Timothy 4:16----King James Version (KJV)

16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Originally Posted by Billyray

So what is the answer? Can you save others when you do works?

Your question will have to be preserved for Paul--I did not make that statement. But this the scriptures do teach--God gives His grace unto life to those who obey Him.


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Did Paul save people?


1 Corinthians 9:22---King James Version (KJV)

22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Your question will have to be preserved for Paul. . .

But you are the one who is using this verse as a prooftext for your works based salvation. I would think that would be able to explain the text that you brought up.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Can you save others when you do works?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But this the scriptures do teach--God gives His grace unto life to those who obey Him.

No they don't DB. Nowhere does the Bible teach that we earn grace by doing works. In fact it says just the opposite in Romans 11.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Regardless of how many times one reads the Biblical NT--one will find all will be judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation.

Romans 3
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Can you tell me the basis for justification according to these verses?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

A
Eternal life is based on His grace. His grace unto life is based on our obedience to Jesus Christ.

So you work to earn grace/eternal life. Is that a fair ***essment of your beliefs?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--Eternal life is based on His grace. His grace unto life is based on our obedience to Jesus Christ.


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you work to earn grace/eternal life. Is that a fair ***essment of your beliefs?

Did those who repent and were baptized earn God's grace of the forgiveness of sins?


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Did those who obeyed God earn God's grace of the Holy Ghost?

Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.