The Atonement of Jesus Christ---all men--or just a few?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Don't Arminians believe that?

Arminians don't share the LDS belief in complete free will (i.e. free agency).

Jeff do you really believe that man has complete free will outside of any control from God?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Arminians don't share the LDS belief in complete free will (i.e. free agency).

What choices do Arminians believe that a person is unable to make? Joshua said to choose who you will serve. Are you saying he was lying because we are not really free to choose whether we will serve the true God or some false god?

Jeff do you really believe that man has complete free will outside of any control from God?

Do you really believe that Satan wasn't given complete freedom to rebel against God? Do you believe that Peter wasn't given freedom to follow or to abandon Christ?

[James Banta]

I have NEVER said that His atoning sacrifice was offered just for those that respond to it.. GOD loves the whole of the world enough to come into it and take our sin on Himself and die to provide us the way to life.. However His blood that has the only power to make us clean is only utilized by those willing to accept it and that by faith. See that verse that you seem to like because it teaches that Jesus can into mortality bringing life, make it clear that only those that believe in Him will receive it.. Only those who are in HIM have that great grace as their gift from God. Therefore only a small fraction of the human race are predestined to receive that gift.. In that way the teachings of Calvin are upheld as they conform to the teachings of the Bible..

The teachings of mormonism falls flat on it's face in teaching that we can do anything to gain the gift of everlasting life.. Mormonism teaches not just faith in their Jesus but the works of baptism, laying on of hands, marriage in the "new and everlasting covenant" and enduring to the end in righteousness. Other than faith mentioned in this point of the mormon creed mormonism is all about what a member of that organization must do. Then it turns out that 100% of it's members FAIL in keeping that last most important point.. And I say that by the authority of God's word.

Psalm 53:2-3
God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Everyone of us, yes I include myself, have become filthy, not one of us does good, NOT ONE. Alone with all mankind ever member of the LDS church is filthy, they don't seek after God, they don't do good. There is no way we can do one thing for ourselves to correct this. God had to do it, and He did just that in the person of Jesus.. You can allow Him to become sin for you and give you the righteousness of God, or you can stand before Him to be judged in the filth and total corruption that we all weave together and call our personal righteousness.. I will throw myself in faith onto His grace and accept His righteousness as mine by that grace through a faith that He has provided to me.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Do you really believe that Satan wasn't given complete freedom to rebel against God? Do you believe that Peter wasn't given freedom to follow or to abandon Christ?

Do you really hold the position the God sits on the sidelines and watches, not getting involved with His creation in order to protect individual "free agency"?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Do you really believe that Satan wasn't given complete freedom to rebel against God? Do you believe that Peter wasn't given freedom to follow or to abandon Christ?

Satan doesn't have "free agency" to do whatever he pleases.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alma 11
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

So the Mormon Jesus could save them if he wanted to?

Can the Mormon Jesus save everyone if he wanted to OR is He incapable of doing so without the person doing works in order to earn his salvation?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you really hold the position the God sits on the sidelines and watches, not getting involved with His creation in order to protect individual "free agency"?

The LDS take the position that God died for all men---that all men would have the opportunity to inherit eternal life. Why do you deny that?



Hebrews 2:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 Timothy 4:10---King James Version (KJV)


10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.



2 Peter 3:9---King James Version (KJV)


9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



1 Timothy 2:4----King James Version (KJV)


4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


***us 2:11---King James Version (KJV)


11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


Romans 5:18----King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


2 Corinthians 5:15---King James Version (KJV)


15 And that he died for all,that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can the Mormon Jesus save everyone if he wanted to OR is He incapable of doing so without the person doing works in order to earn his salvation?

Is God incapable of saving satan--or did satan do something that God refuses to extend His grace to him?

Is this an example of someone doing works in order to receive of God's grace?


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Was the remission of sins earned--or did God extend His grace to those who obeyed Him?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Was the remission of sins earned--or did God extend His grace to those who obeyed Him?

Alma 11
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

So the Mormon Jesus could save them if he wanted to?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Was the remission of sins earned--or did God extend His grace to those who obeyed Him?

Romans 11:6 6*And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Can the Mormon Jesus save everyone if he wanted to OR is He incapable of doing so without the person doing works in order to earn his salvation?

dberrie----Is God incapable of saving satan--or did satan do something that God refuses to extend His grace to him?

Is this an example of someone doing works in order to receive of God's grace?


Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Was the remission of sins earned--or did God extend His grace to those who obeyed Him?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alma 11
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

So the Mormon Jesus could save them if he wanted to?

How do you relate this scripture to the question being posed? You state--- He incapable of doing so without the person doing works in order to earn his salvation?--is this an example of what you are referring to in earning salvation?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

How do you relate this scripture to the question being posed? You state---[B] He incapable of doing so without the person doing works in order to earn his salvation?

Romans 4
5*However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 4-5*However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

God justified all men of life in His redemptive Atonement--the ungodly alike:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All men, Billyray. All have been absolved(justified) from the consequences brought upon all men due to the Fall. Now--we answer for our own actions--and not for Adam's sin. All men have the opportunity to inherit life through Christ's Atonement now--and receive of Christ's grace unto life through obedience to Him:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


I believe you are confusing the free gift that came to all men ----with the grace that brings eternal life, as a personal reception. One--the free gift--offers all the opportunity to inherit life by absolving all from the consequences of the Fall--and called the Redemption. The other--the grace that one inherits life by--comes to those who obey the conditions of the Redeemer--obedience to Him, IE, for one example:


Acts 2:38----King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray
Romans 4-5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

DB
God justified all men of life in His redemptive Atonement--the ungodly alike:

So you believe that all men are justified and saved?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

God justified all men of life in His redemptive Atonement--the ungodly alike. . .All men, Billyray. All have been absolved(justified) from the consequences brought upon all men due to the Fall. Now--we answer for our own actions--and not for Adam's sin. All men have the opportunity to inherit life through Christ's Atonement now--and receive of Christ's grace unto life through obedience to Him:

I am still amazed after all these years how Mormons twist the scriptures and I am starting to believe that they really believe what they are telling me despite the fact that it runs exactly opposite what the verse says. DB quoted Romans 4 so let's take a look at what the verse says again

Romans 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

DB tell me what this verse is saying and try to actually discuss this verse not some other verse because this only will show me that you are trying to deceive me.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----God justified all men of life in His redemptive Atonement--the ungodly alike:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All men, Billyray. All have been absolved(justified) from the consequences brought upon all men due to the Fall. Now--we answer for our own actions--and not for Adam's sin. All men have the opportunity to inherit life through Christ's Atonement now--and receive of Christ's grace unto life through obedience to Him:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


I believe you are confusing the free gift that came to all men ----with the grace that brings eternal life, as a personal reception. One--the free gift--offers all the opportunity to inherit life by absolving all from the consequences of the Fall--and called the Redemption. The other--the grace that one inherits life by--comes to those who obey the conditions of the Redeemer--obedience to Him, IE, for one example:


Acts 2:38----King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am still amazed after all these years how Mormons twist the scriptures and I am starting to believe that they really believe what they are telling me despite the fact that it runs exactly opposite what the verse says.

Billyray--it's not the LDS that turn "all men" into a few men.

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The LDS believe it and teach it just as it is written.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you believe that all men are justified and saved?

I believe just what the scripture states--that God died for all men--and all sins--justifying all men of life:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Which means all men now have the opportunity to inherit life.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I believe just what the scripture states--that God died for all men--and all sins--justifying all men of life:

And you brought this up in reference to Romans 4

Romans 4-5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Can you tell me what this verse says?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray--it's not the LDS that turn "all men" into a few men.
Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The LDS believe it and teach it just as it is written.

Mormons really teach that ALL men are justified? Why do you teach the different levels of heaven if ALL men are justified?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And you brought this up in reference to Romans 4

Romans 4-5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Can you tell me what this verse says?

I just did. The ones who trust in the God who Redeemed all men with His Blood--and not the works of the Mosaic Law--they are the ones who have faith in Christ.

Paul's point? Abraham did not live under the works of the Law--but the gospel of Jesus Christ--the very gospel Paul was trying to take to the Jews. The Jews sought to justify themselves in saying--we have father Abraham as our father.

Paul pointed out Abraham did not live under the Mosaic Law(works)--but under the gospel of Christ. Paul was not saying that obedience is not necessary for His grace unto life--as Abraham was given God's grace due to his obedience:


Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Paul was a master of the scriptures--he would not have made so rudimentary mistake as to attempt to make the point that Abraham did not receive grace due to obedience to Christ--the same as we do. He would have been cut to pieces if he had--they would have to do no more than what I just did--quote Genesis26:4-5.

When Paul uses the term "works"--that represents the Mosaic Law--not the gospel of Christ.

How could you explain Paul's statement just two chapters earlier?


Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


How does that compare to a faith alone theology?

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by Billyray

It looks like DB's suspension at CARM has been lifted so he is now spamming that board.

So if he is defending his faith in that cesspool, he is "spamming"? Interesting.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

So if he is defending his faith in that cesspool, he is "spamming"? Interesting.

Despite his snark, I get where BR is coming from, as the deleterious effect for me in this board is that I lose track when there is a tsunami of replies to much older threads (I remember not too long ago when some mocked Jim for replying to threads that were old) when there were just a few threads that I could follow the activity stream pretty much by the first few words of the replies seen there without paying much attention the the thread tytles. DB2K is prolific that's for sure - I wonder how many keyboards he burned through Imagine the computing power required if it turns out he is using Dragon Speak

With so many threads to follow it will look like I have no answers for him when I miss one or three. So the appearance may be there is no response for what he posted but in reality I probably do have a response but I just can't find the thread anymore and I only have limited time resources.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

So if he is defending his faith in that cesspool, he is "spamming"? Interesting.

Would you say that DB is defending Mormonism since I don't see him doing that.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Would you say that DB is defending Mormonism since I don't see him doing that.

Sorry, Billyray--but what I bear testimony here is LDS theology--which you know little of, despite your claims.

What is found in the Bible is also found in the LDS church.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Sorry, Billyray--but what I bear testimony here is LDS theology--which you know little of, despite your claims.

What is found in the Bible is also found in the LDS church.

OK let's test your claim since you seem to want to actually discuss Mormonism.

Can you show me where it teaches Temple marriage between a man and a women in the NT?