If it is false then you should have no trouble answering my question. If Jesus paid for very sin for every person then what is the basis for sending anyone to Hell?
If it is false then you should have no trouble answering my question. If Jesus paid for very sin for every person then what is the basis for sending anyone to Hell?
It does not make any sense to me. If the Atonement "was sufficient to save all mankind,"--then it had to include all mankind. That could not be a limited Atonement--as to all inclusive numbers of all mankind.How does this differ with what you are trying to say:
3. THE ATONEMENT IS LIMITED IN PURPOSE AND APPLICATION
While the value of the atonement was sufficient to save all mankind, it was efficient to save only the elect. It is indifferently well adapted to the salvation of one man to that of another, thus making the salvation of every man objectively possible; yet because of subjective difficulties, arising on account of the sinners own inability either to see or appreciate the things of God, only those are saved who are regenerated and sanctified by the Holy Spirit. The reason why God does not apply this grace to all men has not been fully revealed.
And it confuses the grace of the Redemptive Atonement with the grace that allows the personal reception of eternal life. One was a free gift to all men--all men were Redeemed from the consequences of the Fall through the Atonement.
Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
The other--His grace unto life--as a personal reception--goes to those who obey Him--and is not a free gift.
Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
And it has been revealed why God does not apply His grace unto life, as a personal reception to all men:
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9----King James Version (KJV)
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Wedding invitations are sent to everybody that would be sufficient to invite everybody. Unlimted invitation to all, no one did not get an invitation but do those who do not RVSP get to enjoy the party?
This is you third moronic comment...the 20 years I spoke of was anti-Mormons and Calvinism. Are you truly that lacking in intelligence?You said that in your 20 years of debate you have never meet someone who "not not a member of the cult of Calvinism". You have been given two Christians in just the last hour who are not Calvinists. So much for your "20 year" streak. My guess is that what you have said in not true.
I see you have not answered any of my three questions about your beliefs...I can understand the embarr***ment of answering yes to them.
So you are a Calvinist. I would recommend you seek your own salvation before seeking ours.
The Atonement Redemption was not an invitation with a RVSP. It was a free gift to all--whether it is accepted or not. No attendance necessary. God died for all men--all sins--of the whole world. Him alone. Done. Finished. Over when He completed it. The free gift came upon all men when God finished it--not when we attend the "party".
Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
"Came upon"--past tense. If the Redemption of mankind by Christ would have involved our faith, attendance or acceptance--it would have failed. His perfection only.
Regardless of the RSVP, Matthew 22:3 And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come." All were invited, few came. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem how I longed to gather you as a hen gathers her chick but you would not."
I believe you are confusing the opportunity to inherit eternal life--which is a free gift that came to all through God's free gift of His Atonement, the Redemption--with the actual reception of God's grace unto life to those who obey Him--which comes to those who obey the Redeemer's conditions.Regardless of the RSVP, Matthew 22:3 And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come." All were invited, few came. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem how I longed to gather you as a hen gathers her chick but you would not."
For instance--the Atonement made it possible for all men to repent of their sins--but it did not remiss anyone's sins.
Repentance and water baptism(obedience) was given by the Redeemer as the condition for the actual remission of sins.
Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The point being--if the Atonement forgave sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins following the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ?
I liken that to a college. The presence of a college represents an opportunity for all to be educated. That is a free gift to all--and a very important one at that. We take that for granted, often. But there are places in the world where that opportunity is not present--regardless of how badly one desires an education.
The same true for God's free gift of the Atonement--unless we were released for the automatic consequences brought upon all men due to the Fall--the opportunity was not there, regardless of our desires.
God first had to conquer death and hell--which came to man automatically because of the Fall. That Christ did--and it is referred to as the Redemption. He Redeemed all men from the consequences of the Fall--which now allows all men to be judged according to their own works--and not for Adam's sin. That was a free gift to all men.
The next step in a college education is a degree. That comes to those who obey the criteria set by the college.
The same true for His grace unto life--that comes to those who meets the conditions set by the Redeemer--and is not a free gift. That requires obedience.
I believe the members of this board confuse those two things--the opportunity for Life--presented to all men through Christ's Atonement, as a free gift, no obedience required--and the actual reception of the grace unto life--presented to those who obey the Redeemer's conditions.
Here was your statement.
So every "anti-Mormon" that you have met over the last 20 years was a Calvinist?
No it does not, it teaches that only those already chosen for heaven and who are "drawn through irresitable Grace" will be saved and that those pre-****ed cannot come to God...the odd thing is how do you love such a God as this?
Again you show me that you were never a member of a Christian church.. All that is required to be saved is hold faith in Jesus, who He is and what He did.. Nothing else matters.. You really believe that those that believe that God is able to know who would become His through faith and who would reject Him are in some cult? That seems to be your main difficulty with Calvinism.. We have no extra biblical revelation as mormonism does.. We have no central leadership other than Jesus, as mormonism does.. Those that have those flags are cults.. Yes the Catholic church is a cult for the same reasons mormonism is.. The also have those marks. Extra biblical revelation and strong central leadership.. Until you can point to one man that controls what you call the Cult of Calvinism, or the extra biblical revelation that is used to support doctrines that aren't found in the Bible you are just making things up..I have never meet an anti-Mormon who was not a member of the cult of Calvinism, and I have met and debated many for my years...about 20 years now.
Many have accused Mormons of elitism because they say only some can be saved. When the core of Calvinism is that they alone are chosen and everyone else is ****ed to hell. Where is your integrity?
Should you not repent of Hersey before pointing the finger at others for the same.
I am a minister in my Church, I am obligated to call you to repentance. Also not allow you to quote scripture out of context to justify this position and try to call others into your cult.
I have been told that mormons believe that their God knows all things and yet He doesn't know who will gain exaltation and who will not? Tell me how that is possible? I also believe that God knows all thing and that includes who is saved and who will be ****ed.. Do I really need to repent of holding God in the reverence he deserves? I believe His word that Say He is one Lord.. I believe that He that knows all things yet says He doesn't know of any other Gods besides Himself exist. That means there are no others because He would know them..
You are the minister of a man made man invented cult. A cult that denies the Word of God. Bound and determined to make your own God who have a tangible body of flesh and bone when the Bible insist that God is spirit. That a spirit hasn't a body of flesh and bone.. That Jesus is the image of the INVISIBLE God.. That God has been God from eternity past and will continue to be the ONLY TRUE AND LIVING GOD into eternity future.. So show me how "Calvinism" has taken the scripture out of context to support any of these doctrines. If you need help with finding these doctrines in the Bible shout.. I have quoted them here many times.. As a son of the most High God I call you to the cross to be reborn of Him.. With that He will take your sin from you and give you His righteousness. Being a son and heir of God is far better than some man invented priesthood that again has no Biblical support for it's existence.. IHS jim
Oath formerly taken by Mormons promising not to reveal secret Mormon temple rituals: "Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field."