A "what if" question for critics.

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;154834]It does say "God is Spirit"---but with that, we learn this--Jhn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Just where do you thing we got the reference that God is Spirit.. the a is an addition to make the p***age flow better in English but that "a" is not in the original m****cripts.. I thought you knew that..

How do you worship someone in spirit? Does that mean that you must separate your spirit from your body to worship God? Or does this verse speak to the fact that we know God by His Spirit and we worship Him by our spirit?

The p***ge means just what it says.. that God is Spirit.. The Holy Spirit though the Apostle Paul teaches is that Jesus is the physical image of the INVISIBLE GOD.. God is a spiritual Person and has no physical attributes at all..

So, then do we ignore that Christ has a body of flesh and bones AFTER He was resurrected? Do we ignore His teachings that we learn of the Father by Him? Do we believe that God the Father is something so entirely different than Jesus Christ? Or do we accept that God has a body because Jesus Christ has a body?

We believe that the Father and the Son are the same Being. That They are the same power, the same essence. The Bible teaches that there is one God and before Him there was no god formed and there will be none after Him.. According to mormonism and I would think according to you Jesus became a God sometime after the Father was already God.. According to God's word that could never take place.. NOTHING and NO ONE coud become a God after God was already God (Isaiah 43:10). One more place where mormonism denies the Bible..

As I noted earlier, it is amazing to me the lengths some go to show the differences between the Father and the Son, especially in light of your understanding that they are one.

They are not different.. They are the same God.. They exist in each other along with the Holy Spirit.. No one here is saying that they are different Gods except mormons.. The Christian here hold that jesus is in the Father and the Father in Him.. And the Holy Spirit in both.. Yes They are separate Persons who are one God. But they are NOT THREE SEPARATE GODS.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

[BigJulie;154825]Wow James--you are now trying to make your point using the D&C? Yes, what problem do you have with this verse?

Though you are free to believe that your God gives and revokes commandment at his whim. The God of the Bible commandments are eternal, never to be revoked.. Your God gave a commandment to build a temple and pointed to the very site.. That site is the temple lot in Far West Missouri. Is it there or did the mormon God say that He could defeat the mods of Missouri and take back the command? Look at D&C 124:49.. The Lord protected the Children of Israel as they escaped from Egypt against the sure death the Egyptians were ready to bring on them, but He couldn't find a way to protect the LDS from their enemies to complete the building he had commanded them to built.. WEAK GOOD FOR NOTHING GOD YOU MORMONS HAVE..

At this point there are over 100 temples built.
Yup, which is why there are over 100 temples now.

Yes, it is being built even as we speak--and will continue.

IT is not being built! There isn't even any excavation being done on the lot.. In fact the property doesn't even belong to the LDS church. For you to say that a temple being built is Independence and that fulfills this prophecy is like saying that the sun came up this morning so that fulfills the prophecy of the return of the Son of God.. After all Sun, and Son sound the same.. IT ISN'T in the time Smith prophesied (He said when it would be completed, "For verily this generation shall not all p*** away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.") Those that gathered in Far West have long been dead, even the new born babies that were present there have long been dead of OLD AGE... Smith Prophecy of a temple in Far West FAILED. It was a clearly a false prophecy making Smith a false prophet!

As noted, the Holy Ghost bears witness to us of the scriptures--through the Holy Ghost, there is no need of contention as to what the scriptures mean.

While the Holy Spirit does testify of Jesus, it was Jesus that testified of His word. It was Jesus that told the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would bring all He said to their remembrance.. It is the Holy Spirit that teaches us His word (1 Corinthians 2:13), but if we refuse to seek Him we will never find Him.. He is found in the book containing His word.. We are told to study to show ourselves approved by God rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15).. You say you believe in obedience.. Why not go and do what He has commanded

Yes, Joseph Smith was 14 when he received his first revelation.

That depends on which of his wild tales you want to believed.. In some of his stories he said he was 16.. Do you know of the proverb that says that to be a good liar you must have a good memory?

Well, look at the word "our" image. I know that you know that God, as translated correctly from Hebrew actually means "gods"---not to hard to understand really.

Yes you could ignore all the rest of the scripture to have your meaning be the only true meaning.. Never mind that YHWH told Isaiah that there is no God beside Him. That He who knows all things don't know what you know.. He doesn't know of any other God (Isaiah 44:8).. It doesn't matter what you say.. God is the authority here NOT YOU.. When he said "I am God there is no other" (Isaiah 46:9), he know, and He is trustworthy.. You don't know, you are not trustworthy. That shows by your lack of faith in what He has told us of His nature by the prophet. Or is it that Isaiah is am older prophet and what a newer prophet teaches in God's new truth? Because we all know that God changes right? (Mal 3:6)..

Nope, because God is invisible to us. But obviously, for instance, Stephen saw Christ standing on the right hand of God.
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.

I have never said here or anywhere that The Father and the Son are the same person.. Has any man seen the invisible God, NO.. What did Steven see? He saw what a man can see of God. The ***urance that He was there.. Even when He was dying there is no way to see the invisible.. He saw God's glory and he saw Jesus. It never teaches in that p***age that He saw God.. Read it again, Steven saw God's glory, He saw Jesus, and Jesus was on the right hand of God.. Just where in that does it say he saw God?

You know, I always find it fascinating the lengths some go to explain that God the Father is NOT like Jesus Christ, all the while contending that they are One.

Jesus said that when you have seen Him you have seen the Father. That He and the Father are one.. So what am I saying here? I am saying that Jesus the Child born unto us is the Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.. Who is the Father? He is the Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.. Other than the fact that the Father is physically invisible He and Jesus are the same Being.. That is less different than mormonism teaches them to be.. Mormonism teaches that they are two separate gods..

But as I noted James---we will disagree---which is why ALL need the witness of the Holy Ghost.

It was the Holy Spirit that moved men to record His dealing with mankind. he is the same God always.. He is not going to teach that He is a Spirit in one text and turn around and say it has a body of flesh and bone as tangible as man in another.. To believe what a man teaches instead of what God has clearly stated shows a lack of faith in and knowledge of God. Remember Jesus (GOD) said that heaven and earth would die before he allowed His word to die.. If the Bible has been corrupted and we can't look to those errors and say these aren't part of the word then the Bible is dead, totally worthless in it message.. But Jesus (God) is powerful and has protected His word from the world. Therefore His word, the message He gave us originally has survived and is still there in the words of the Bible.. Remember He promised to always be with us even to the end of the world.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

yes this is why we know the Bible is the word of God.. But Christian believe that the Holy Spirit is God.. Mormons, well not so much...

Why do you think Christ taught that the Holy Ghost will teach us ALL things---and have us remember what he said? (Which was written down.) Why doesn't Christ tell us that we can learn all from the scriptures?

YOU REMEMBER ALL THAT JESUS TAUGHT? No dear,you have the opportunity to read what the Holy Spirit brought to the world though the memories of the disciples. I have showed you that within the scriptures we have the knowledge of Jesus (God), and of His salvation.. If you need wisdom for that you can understand these things (James 1:5) by all means pray for it.. If you want knowledge STUDY (2 Timothy 2:15).. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Just where do you thing we got the reference that God is Spirit.. the a is an addition to make the p***age flow better in English but that "a" is not in the original m****cripts.. I thought you knew that..



The p***ge means just what it says.. that God is Spirit.. The Holy Spirit though the Apostle Paul teaches is that Jesus is the physical image of the INVISIBLE GOD.. God is a spiritual Person and has no physical attributes at all..

Jesus Christ is proof that your beliefs about this is not correct. Jesus Christ came and showed the disciples that He has a resurrected body. If you believe that God is one with Christ, than you must accept, that at least in some form, God has a body. Now the question is---do you believe that Christ is the express image of the Father or not? As I said, being Spirit does not mean you have no body--just as you have both.

We believe that the Father and the Son are the same Being. That They are the same power, the same essence. The Bible teaches that there is one God and before Him there was no god formed and there will be none after Him.. According to mormonism and I would think according to you Jesus became a God sometime after the Father was already God.. According to God's word that could never take place.. NOTHING and NO ONE coud become a God after God was already God (Isaiah 43:10). One more place where mormonism denies the Bible..

Umm, nope, not according to Mormonism. As you know, Mormons understand that Jesus Christ was part of the Godhead prior to the beginning of the earth. That said...if you believe the Father and the Son "are the same Being"---then you also accept that God has a body.

They are not different.. They are the same God.. They exist in each other along with the Holy Spirit.. No one here is saying that they are different Gods except mormons.. The Christian here hold that jesus is in the Father and the Father in Him.. And the Holy Spirit in both.. Yes They are separate Persons who are one God. But they are NOT THREE SEPARATE GODS.. IHS jim

No, you are saying that they are different--in that Christ has a body and God the Father doesn't. You say that God is Spirit ONLY--and yet you state that Christ exists "along with" God the Father. Is your position that Christ has a resurrected body, but God the Father does not?---If you state that they are the same being--then you must admit, to you, your God has a body as part of that being is Jesus Christ who has a body.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Yes you could ignore all the rest of the scripture to have your meaning be the only true meaning.. Never mind that YHWH told Isaiah that there is no God beside Him. That He who knows all things don't know what you know.. He doesn't know of any other God (Isaiah 44:8).. It doesn't matter what you say.. God is the authority here NOT YOU.. When he said "I am God there is no other" (Isaiah 46:9), he know, and He is trustworthy..

It is plain that Isaiah spoke in poetic language to help us understand the majesty of God. But unlike you, I do not take the concrete writings of Moses and then ***ume that they are now only metaphorical and then take the metaphorical writings of Isaiah and try to make them concrete. It is obvious to me which one is which.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

It is plain that Isaiah spoke in poetic language to help us understand the majesty of God.

So your explanation is that these sections of scripture are false as written?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, you are saying that they are different--in that Christ has a body and God the Father doesn't.

BigJ would you say that the mormon concept of god is consistent with what the Bible teaches or are these ideas derived from extra Biblical sources?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So your explanation is that these sections of scripture are false as written?

No, just poetic as written. Or do you take something like this concretely as well:


Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Do you think this means that David has a house and he has a key to that house and he stuck that key on his shoulder, literally? Or do you think this is metaphorical so we can understand something grander?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, just poetic as written.

But your viewpoint conflicts what what is written. Right?

Are the verses correct or incorrect as written?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, just poetic as written. Or do you take something like this concretely as well:


Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Do you think this means that David has a house and he has a key to that house and he stuck that key on his shoulder, literally? Or do you think this is metaphorical so we can understand something grander?

In order for your example to work--in order to help bolster your position on the other verses that we were discussing--I would have to take an opposing view of what is being said in the verses you quoted--JUST like you are doing with the verses that we have been discussing.

For example

Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder;

would therefore become

Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I (NOT) lay upon his shoulder;

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But your viewpoint conflicts what what is written. Right?

Are the verses correct or incorrect as written?

Not at all. Do you believe your viewpoint conflicts with what is written if you believe that David has a house and he has a key to that house and he takes that key and puts it on his shoulder, literally? Or do you think---wow, the person really doesn't get the metaphor?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

In order for your example to work--in order to help bolster your position on the other verses that we were discussing--I would have to take an opposing view of what is being said in the verses you quoted--JUST like you are doing with the verses that we have been discussing.

For example

Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder;

would therefore become

Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I (NOT) lay upon his shoulder;

Not at all....---do you believe this is a literal house and a literal key?

The opposing view regarding the verse you mentioned is that to Israel, there is another god that can save them...which there isn't. But if you don't understand the metaphor, you would miss that meaning.

I am just curious if you understand the metaphor regarding David's house. What does it mean to you? Just out of curiosity, I am wondering if you can understand it, if you take Isaiah so literally.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Not at all....

Sure that is exactly what you have done. In the other verses you have changed the meaning of the verse to mean the complete opposite of what is clearly written and you are trying to justify this change by saying that it is "poetic" etc. Language can be literal or figurative and people use both everyday of the week and most have no difficulty understanding the difference. But you have a verse that does not agree with your extra Biblical viewpoint so you have to make up some kind of excuse to justify changing the meaning of it. Am I right?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Not at all....---do you believe this is a literal house and a literal key?

No I don't believe that this is a literal house or a literal key nor do I think any other Christian on this board. As I said above we all use literal and figurative language daily and for despite this fact we are able to understand the difference between the two. Yet you try to justify your position to change the meaning of the scriptures and this is the ploy that you are attempting to use to do so.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sure that is exactly what you have done. In the other verses you have changed the meaning of the verse to mean the complete opposite and justifying this by saying that it is poetic. Language can be literal or figurative and people everyday use both and most have no difficulty understanding the difference. But you have a verse that does not agree with your extra Biblical viewpoint so you have to make up some kind of excuse to justify changing the meaning of it. Am I right?

No, as usual, you are wrong. Isaiah speaks poetically. Moses speaks concretely. So, when Moses wrote that God created us in His likeness and image and that Adam's son was in his likeness and image--that is pretty direct.

But, Billyray, the struggle I have conversing with you is that you literally will cut and paste a piece out of my reply (even out of the sentence) and respond as if no explanation or further understanding can be had or was given.

And I agree--most have no difficulty understanding the difference between literal and figurative language. This makes me wonder why you would take a literal writer such as Moses and make "likeness and image" figurative and then take a figurative writer such as Isaiah and make his writings literal...and then argue with me that I have "extra Biblical" viewpoints...when we are only discussing what is actually written in the Bible and by whom. Everything we are discussing can be taken straight from the Bible and in context of the Bible.

I guess I can just ask the reader---how easy it is to read Genesis verses Isaiah? Which one uses figurative and poetic language? Who writes fairly concretely? We will let them decide.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, as usual, you are wrong. Isaiah speaks poetically. Moses speaks concretely. So, when Moses wrote that God created us in His likeness and image and that Adam's son was in his likeness and image--that is pretty direct.

Fair enough, let's go back to Moses and finish what we were talking about before since you say that what Moses wrote was "concrete".

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Gen 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: .....So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


To me, it is simple. God is the God of gods---as such, when he said our--he was speaking to those with him and included himself. Those would be those "great and noble ones" that were there in the pre-existence with him. Jesus Christ was there, of course as part of the Godhead.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you be more specific? So far you have stated that the gods spoken about in this verse are: 1. God the Father 2. Jesus Christ. Who are the other gods that you think were present? (I am asking because it is important when discussing this verse in context to your original use of this verse in support of mormonism).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

. . .No, as usual, you are wrong. Isaiah speaks poetically. Moses speaks concretely.. .

Isaiah 43
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me. . ." declares the Lord,


Would you say that this quote from the Lord is poetic and inaccurate as written?

When you see a QUOTE followed by "declared the Lord", what does that mean to you?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Isaiah 43
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me. . ." declares the Lord,


Would you say that this quote from the Lord is poetic and inaccurate as written?

When you see a QUOTE followed by "declared the Lord", what does that mean to you?

That is bout as plain as the nose on my face, and I got a pretty big nose too. However some can't see the forest for the nose.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

And I agree--most have no difficulty understanding the difference between literal and figurative language.

And yet you seem to be having trouble with this in BOTH Genesis and Isaiah. Why is that BigJ? Are you trying to cover up the false teachings of Mormonism? That is the only reasonable explanation. Unless of course you are having problems with literal and figurative language.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, as usual, you are wrong. Isaiah speaks poetically. Moses speaks concretely. So, when Moses wrote that God created us in His likeness and image and that Adam's son was in his likeness and image--that is pretty direct.

But, Billyray, the struggle I have conversing with you is that you literally will cut and paste a piece out of my reply (even out of the sentence) and respond as if no explanation or further understanding can be had or was given.

And I agree--most have no difficulty understanding the difference between literal and figurative language. This makes me wonder why you would take a literal writer such as Moses and make "likeness and image" figurative and then take a figurative writer such as Isaiah and make his writings literal...and then argue with me that I have "extra Biblical" viewpoints...when we are only discussing what is actually written in the Bible and by whom. Everything we are discussing can be taken straight from the Bible and in context of the Bible.

I guess I can just ask the reader---how easy it is to read Genesis verses Isaiah? Which one uses figurative and poetic language? Who writes fairly concretely? We will let them decide.

To me, your post makes very good sense. You did a good *** of explaining.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

To me, your post makes very good sense. You did a good *** of explaining.

Thanks Phoenix

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Isaiah 43
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me. . ." declares the Lord,


Would you say that this quote from the Lord is poetic and inaccurate as written?

When you see a QUOTE followed by "declared the Lord", what does that mean to you?

Okay, Billyray---I often find that if I go back and look at the real scripture--I can see why you put a "..." there.

Let's look at the whole verse:

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

So, who do you think this verse is speaking of? Is it God the Father (without a body to you) or is it Jesus Christ who came down in a body and died and was resurrected and was exalted and stands at the right hand of God?

Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Just for any readers out there...I do not believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ are one "being"---I believe that they are one in heart and purpose (and that Jesus Christ is part of the Godhead and has been from the beginning)--But God is "one" with Christ, just as God asks us to be one with Him and with each other.----but the scriptures clearly teach that Christ was His own person. Otherwise, there would be no reason to submit His own will to that of His Fathers.

[RealFakeHair]

god had feathers and wings according to the bible

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

god had feathers and wings according to the bible

Psalms 91
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.

He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler."

Once again, we can see that the Psalms of David are written in poetic language and are figurative in nature. We can either believe that God has feathers and wings---or we can recognize the type of speech this is. Yet, God in His infinite love sent His Son, and rather than be confused, we can know for a surety what God is like because His Son came and lived here on earth and told us that He is the express image of the Father.

[RealFakeHair]

So God is figurative a Spirit. I suppose the Holy Ghost is figurative a person of flesh and bone?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

So God is figurative a Spirit. I suppose the Holy Ghost is figurative a person of flesh and bone?

No, It is John who teaches us that God is Spirit in the New Testament. God is a Spirit---but, so are you and me. The basis of who you are is your spirit---not your body. But that does not exclude you from having a body--just as it doesn't exclude God. Christ taught that we get to know God via His Spirit through our spirit.

If I said that you are a brunette, does that exclude you from having ears or eyes or legs or a spirit?