A "what if" question for critics.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Libby

I very much agree with that. I think it is our own experience with the Holy Spirit and God's Word that is important. We are all going to misunderstand and misinterpret some things, but perhaps not nearly as much as we might, if we always listen to others, instead of trusting the Spirit in us. I do believe God speaks to us directly and very personally.

In this, yes, we very much agree. Thank goodness, God loves all of us so much that if we seek Him, he is there.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So are you now in agreement that God enters his own creation in the person of Jesus?

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Not at all.

Originally Posted by Billyray

I would like to sort this out with you so I can understand your position. Trust me I am really interested how you justify your position with respect to what the Bible teaches--so permit me to ask you a couple of pointed questions one by one so I can truly understand your beliefs.

1. Is Jesus God?

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Billyray, I know you well enough to know that you do one of two things---either you attempt to lead me down a path so you can do a "gotcha" kind of approach (same approach the Pharisees attempted with Christ, btw) or you just repeat the same questions over and over again.

BigJ I am not trying to trick you--rather trying to show you that what you said was false. My question was a simple one--one that I know you can answer. Here it is again for you.

Is Jesus God?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yep, that is Billyray, in a nutshell.

I am not trying to trick you or BigJ. Rather I am trying to show you that your beliefs are either inconsistent with the Bible OR that you are flat out ignoring p***ages in the Bible. A perfect example is when I showed you the verses from John 6--you simply refused to address them because they are inconsistent with your position.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am not trying to trick you or BigJ. Rather I am trying to show you that your beliefs are either inconsistent with the Bible OR that you are flat out ignoring p***ages in the Bible. A perfect example is when I showed you the verses from John 6--you simply refused to address them because they are inconsistent with your position.

I am not ignoring anything. I told you I agreed with John 6 and that you are reading things into it that are not there. You ignore responses, when they are not in line with what you are expecting or wanting someone to say. You will ignore responses and then claim the person never responded and ask the question again and again, as if it were never answered. I've tried to have a "real" conversation with you, many times, Billy. I don't think it's possible.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I told you I agreed with John 6 and that you are reading things into it that are not there.

John 6
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.


Let's start with verse 37. Who are those that the Father gives to the Son? All people or a subset of the population?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

You ignore responses, when they are not in line with what you are expecting or wanting someone to say. You will ignore responses and then claim the person never responded and ask the question again and again, as if it were never answered.

Libby, you and BigJ do the same thing in many of your posts--you both ignore many p***ages that I bring up--and the only real explanation is that it contradicts your position.

I would love to see your reasoning on the verses that I gave in John 6 particularly verse 37. You said that you gave me a response can you point me to your post where you discussed this verse?

[Libby]

Let's start with verse 37. Who are those that the Father gives to the Son? All people or a subset of the population?

The people given by the Father to the Son are those who responded to His drawing.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The people given by the Father to the Son are those who responded to His drawing.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.*

Good--you believe that "All" in verse 37 is a subset of the population and not every single person--and I agree.


Now can you tell me what these people did exactly in order for the Father to give them to the Son?

[alanmolstad]

Very good Libby,
I will show you how a Calvinist will totally screw up their own question, and have no clue that they are doing so.


lets take for example Billy's question to you as our example -

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.*

Good--you believe that "All" in verse 37 is a subset of the population and not every single person--and I agree.


Now can you tell me what these people did exactly in order for the Father to give them to the Son?

Do you see how they have a verse that is addressing the issue from the POV of God, and then twist it around and try to make it a question from the POV of man?

They have no clue they do this....


None of the Calvinists I have seen lately know that they commit this error.

This is just what I was talking about before when I gave the example that a Calvinist might ask me, "Alan do you believe in predestination of the believer?"..and i would answer "YES!".....only to see them turn around and ask me, "But Alan you said that men have free will and unless they use their free will to make the free choice to come to god they are lost?"....

Calvinists dont understand their error in POV .
"predestination " is looking at the issue from the POV of God.
"Free Will" is looking at the issue from the POV of man.

The two dont mix.


The rule you got to keep is that if you are looking at this topic from the POV of God (as in Billy's Bible quotation) they you have to maintain that POV of view in your thinking too.
You cant take a verse that it teaching about the POV of God, and twist it into being a teaching about the POV of mankind.

If you try to do that, you will never understand ....



And this is the answer.
Walter Martin talks about this in the recording I have linked here.
This is why Walter came to the same conclusion that i have, that being that Calvinism as a general teaching is in error, but that parts of Calvinism are correct.



The only conclusion supported by the bible is-
Man does indeed have Free Will......."and"......God is sovereign.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Very good Libby,
I will show you how a Calvinist will totally screw up their own question, and have no clue that they are doing so.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.


I welcome your explanation of this section of scripture Alan. Start with this verse and tell me what it means and then we can move on to the surrounding verses.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.


I welcome your explanation of this section of scripture Alan. Start with this verse and tell me what it means and then we can move on to the surrounding verses.

Billy, you confuse the POV between the bible text you quote, and the question you ask...


Stop doing that and all your misunderstandings about what the Bible verse is teaching will go away.

[alanmolstad]

Nothing I can say will matter to someone who simply does not see the error in the point of view they take...

[alanmolstad]

If you take a bible verse that is clearly teaching about man's Free Will....then that has to be maintained in what you seek in questions later.

Man has Free Will.....the Bible clearly teaches that unless you make the free choice to believe you will remain lost forever.
Free Will gives us the ability to do as the lord shouts and "repent"

Unless you repent with a heart that is free to do so, your act of repentance is a joke.

So all of the bible verses that a person may use to prove man does have a Free Will should only be used to look at this issue from man's POV.....


So, understand that so far?

[alanmolstad]

In the same way....


all the Bible verses that prove 100% that God is sovereign must be understood to be addressing this issue from the POV of God's.

You have to maintain that POV or you will simply get messed up again and again...as you try to use a verse that is written with one POV to try to teach answers on a different POV.


You have to maintain the correct POV as is found in the Bible verse we may quote.

[alanmolstad]

This is the error as far as i can see of what Calvinism got wrong.

but the good news is, is that calvinism did not fall from heaven....

calvinism is just a dreamed up teaching of flawed men's minds.

And so you can reject it.
or you can reject parts of it....as Walter Martin and myself have concluded is the correct position to take on this issue.

I dont toss the baby out with the dirty bath water.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I dont toss the baby out with the dirty bath water.

This is something I learned from Walter Martin.
For Walter was always pointing out to people that just because a teaching had a few errors, you dont need to conclude that "everything" that the teaching was connected to was also error.

If there are parts of a teaching that are correct, dont ***ume that you have to paint the true things with the same brush that you paint the known errors.

But that is a problem because we humans tend to have personal needs to make 'everything" connected to a teaching we disagree with 'look' equally in error.

we tend to paint teachings with a wide and sloppy brush.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.*

Good--you believe that "All" in verse 37 is a subset of the population and not every single person--and I agree.


Now can you tell me what these people did exactly in order for the Father to give them to the Son?

They responded to God's drawing.

Where we differ, Billy, is in whom God draws. The Bible says that God wishes all to be saved. If that's the case, he must be drawing ALL of us...not just a select few, as most Calvinists believe. Only some will answer the call, many others will reject him. But, they all have the same opportunity, the same ability to overcome. There are no special "chosen" who receive God's grace and added ability over others. God chooses those, who choose Him. Those who choose him, do so of their own will and desire....not because God "tweeked" their will.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Libby

They responded to God's drawing.

Where we differ, Billy, is in whom God draws. The Bible says that God wishes all to be saved. If that's the case, he must be drawing ALL of us...not just a select few, as most Calvinists believe. Only some will answer the call, many others will reject him. But, they all have the same opportunity, the same ability to overcome. There are no special "chosen" who receive God's grace and added ability over others. God chooses those, who choose Him. Those who choose him, do so of their own will and desire....not because God "tweeked" their will.

God will is that all men would come to Jesus and receive life.. Do you doubt that God knows the beginning from the end. That He knows you personally.. Not just that you exist but ever small detail of who you are and what you will do for the rest of your days, right down to the exact time you fall asleep at night to the very second you awaken and rise? Does he force people to believe on Jesus? No, of course not. But he does know who will and who will not accept Him.. Those that He knows will respond are those predestined to life.. Those who He knows will reject Him are predestined to the Lake of Fire.. This confirms God omniscience. To deny Calvinism in the doctrine of selective grace is to deny the all knowing God.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

They responded to God's drawing.

And what did these people do exactly when they "responded to God's drawing" in order for the Father to give them to the Son?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The Bible says that God wishes all to be saved.

If God wanted for every single person to be saved then why aren't all people saved?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.


I welcome your explanation of this section of scripture Alan. Start with this verse and tell me what it means and then we can move on to the surrounding verses.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Billy, you confuse the POV between the bible text you quote, and the question you ask...


Stop doing that and all your misunderstandings about what the Bible verse is teaching will go away.

Alan you ***ume that I am wrong and that you are right--I welcome you disagreement--that is why I would like for you to give me your take on this section of scripture. I have asked you to do so in a prior post but thus far you have failed to do so. Here is the section of scripture again. Let's start with John 6:37.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

[alanmolstad]

some Calvinists believe that God used his ability to see the future, in order to know whom he should call.


This is wrong.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan you ***ume that I am wrong and that you are right--I welcome you disagreement--that is why I would like for you to give me your take on this section of scripture. I have asked you to do so in a prior post but thus far you have failed to do so. Here is the section of scripture again. Let's start with John 6:37.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

I have a few things to post, then I will go over any Bible verse yoiu have a question about it...

But in the end, the final conclusion I will come to is "Man has Free Will, and God is Sovereign! "

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

If that's the case, he must be drawing ALL of us...not just a select few, as most Calvinists believe.

Let's look at the verse that you are referring to in John 6

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

It says that God "draws him" AND Jesus "raised him". So your position is that these are two different groups of people?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have a few things to post, then I will go over any Bible verse yoiu have a question about it...

Why not discuss this verse since it has been the topic for the last couple of pages. Since you think that you are right and I am clearly wrong it should be easy for you to simply tell me what this verse is speaking about.