Originally Posted by
John T
For the record, I HATE THE CALVINISM vs ARMINIANISM battles. There is too much heat, and little light there. The only "winner" is the Enemy of our souls.
I attended a seminary that was very Reformed, and one day in Middler Theology we had a fellow student, a senior step in for Dr. Rudolf. I do not know anything about his lecture excepting that a part of it was on the final exam. This student, several years my junior was a hyper Calvinist, and I just sat and endured his pontificating about the Apostle Paul. Finally, in a state of exuberance, he made the statement "Paul was a Calvinist" and I could bear it no longer.
I waited until there was a break in his lecture, and I put on my "innocent face" and I said "You said that 'Paul was a Calvinist' is that correct?" I paaused waiting for his nod and saying "Yes", then I quietly said, "I always thought that he was an Apostle." The entire room went silent for 30 seconds and then he resumed his lecture as if I did not just cut him off at his knees.
My point to you is that I do not believe that you can support the position that you stated in light of the fact that Ephesians 1:4 makes no equivocation as to the fact that all believers were chosen in Christ, and predestinated before the foundation of the world. But believing that does not alter the fact that there also some people who reject having anything to do with God for one specious reason, or another.
The example of Pharaoh and Moses is a good discussion of the issue. Pharaoh first rejected God, and then God hardened his heart; from Scripture that is abundantly clear, and that also seems to be the order of things in Scripture with other people, also.
So it seems to me (and I reserve the right to be wrong) is that predestination is only for the saved, and human will is only for those who reject Jesus Christ. Look at what happens to those who reject Jesus Christ in the Bible:
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Therein lies the explanation where those who reject Christ and His salvation have no valid reason for doing so. That also makes a fence where the hyper Calvinist cannot go without violating Scripture
To sum it up, I believe that to make an "either/or" choice about one's salvation is surely not a Christ-honoring situation, As a result, I believe that to one degree or another it is "both...and". Our problem comes when we wish to ***ign proportions to human will or to sovereign predestination. So we must leave things somewhat unsettled. All I know is that I am saved by grace, and kept in my salvation in the same manner.
Can you go with that?