My daughter came into town yesterday.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

That is absolutely true that ALL men know that there is a God and ALL men have a basic understanding of right and wrong. But this doesn't say that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Yet you still make that claim.

[alanmolstad]

So in the verse we do see the fact that God is reaching out to all of us....all the time...

so we cant hide and say, "i never knew"

We all know for we all can see the universe that is showing us the nature of God.



This helps us understand why some people will be found in heaven one day who lived far away from where the church reached...

They had the word of god written on their hearts...the law of their personal heart...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You believe it but you have not shown me yet. How can a person be drawn to Christ when they haven't even heard about HIM? AND you still haven't got a single verse in the entire Bible that states that the Father draws ALL men to Christ.

[alanmolstad]

so as we have seen, the father is drawing all men to himself.

and as we see in the video, no person ends up in Hell just because they never heard of Jesus....


Thank God!

john 3;16 rules!

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so as we have seen, the father is drawing all men to himself.

I thought you said before that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Why the change?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

and as we see in the video, no person ends up in Hell just because they never heard of Jesus....

What is the basis for God sending anyone to Hell?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What is the basis for God sending anyone to Hell?

god doesn't....

see the video

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan--per Libby's argument--do you have a "real choice" to obey ALL of the commandments?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God never asked anyone to do things that we could not do. . .

So man IS capable of obeying ALL of the commandments ALL of the time. Is that your position now?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

god doesn't....

You don't believe in Hell?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So man IS capable of obeying ALL of the commandments ALL of the time. Is that your position now?

now?......LOL

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You don't believe in Hell?

you never watched the video I see?...the video says it better than I ever could..

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

now?......LOL

So man IS capable of obeying ALL of the commandments ALL of the time. So that is your position?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I thought you said before that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Why the change?

its the same thing..

God was drawing all men to himself though the cross of Christ.

When Christ was lifted up he drew all of us to himself...

This is the point of the cross...God was giving all of the human race something to look at....something to be attracted to...

not just some of us...not a lucky few...

But all of the human race was given a gift...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

you never watched the video I see?...the video says it better than I ever could..

I am asking you what you believe NOT what the person in the video believes. So you do you believe that there is a Hell or that everyone goes to Heaven?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So man IS capable of obeying ALL of the commandments ALL of the time. So that is your position?

God never once asked a person to do anything that they could not do...



When Peter was asked to walk on water peter did...

so there is your answer..

if we are given a task by the Lord, it is ONLY because God knows we can do it...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I thought you said before that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Why the change?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

its the same thing..

God was drawing all men to himself though the cross of Christ.

When Christ was lifted up he drew all of us to himself...

This is the point of the cross...God was giving all of the human race something to look at....something to be attracted to...

not just some of us...not a lucky few...

But all of the human race was given a gift...

But saying the Father draws all men to Christ is different than saying that the Father draws all men to the Father.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am asking you what you believe NOT what the person in the video believes. So you do you believe that there is a Hell or that everyone goes to Heaven?

its in the video....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But saying the Father draws all men to Christ is different than saying that the Father draws all men to the Father.

nope...same thing.

Christ did all he saw the father doing....

Jesus could not do anything except what he was sent to do by the father..

Jesus came to do only the will of the father, not his own...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God never once asked a person to do anything that they could not do...

If a person obeys ALL of the commandments ALL of the time does that person need a Savior in order to live with God again?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If a person obeys ALL of the commandments ALL of the time does that person need a Savior in order to live with God again?

Matthew 19:20

what did Jesus say?


keeping the commandments is not enough to be what?????

[alanmolstad]

works do not save anyone.....

doing things with my arms and legs dont get my heart right with god....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But saying the Father draws all men to Christ is different than saying that the Father draws all men to the Father.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

nope...same thing.

Do you believe that the Father and the Son are the same person?

[alanmolstad]

so the path to the father always leads to christ..."Follow me" is the only requirement...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Matthew 19:20

what did Jesus say?


keeping the commandments is not enough to be what?????

The verse that you gave me didn't answer my question at all so here it is again for you. (BTW you have misunderstood that section of scripture if you believe that the man was sinless--despite his own claim)

If a person obeys ALL of the commandments ALL of the time does that person need a Savior in order to live with God again?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you believe that the Father and the Son are the same person?

same Lord,,,same God...different persons within the one God.

So they cant be separated and somehow teach that one drew us and not the others..

Trust me, if one drew, the other drew too!


Thats why we can have hope...
For our hope is that God was drawing all men to himself in Christ Jesus...


If God was not drawing all men to himself in Jesus we are fools....and we are still in our sins