Free Will

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Mark 1:15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

And where does is say anything about regeneration (born again) in this p***age?

It doesn't, but you were trying to claim that Jesus never said those were prequisites for being born again. I was just showing you that Jesus (and others) DID say that. I am not the only one who goes off on other subjects. As a matter of fact, I'm usually following your lead. I am responding to things you put out there, so don't get all huffy about "me" going off topic, when you are the one leading the way.

I am hesitant to answer your question because I want to stick on the topic at hand which is regeneration (born again). You are doing exactly what BigJ does by trying to change direction to another topic and when I bite the discussion moves to a completely different area. Being born again (regeneration) is very important and is one of the KEY differences between Calvinism and Arminianism.

Nope, I am not at all trying to change direction. I'm just trying to get you to define ONE term. It's important to me, because of the "timeline" or order of salvation, that we were discussing last night.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If being born again has to do with a prescribed sequence such as repentance and placing your faith in Christ which is then immediately followed by being born again then it would be completely opposite of what Christ has told us HIMSELF about being born again. So you know that being born again is not this prescribed repentance and faith results in being born again.

Where, exactly, in John 3, do you see an "order"? I am not seeing that.

At this point, I'm not even sure there is an "order" that is exactly the same for everyone.

But, I do know we have to respond to his drawing, before anything is going to happen.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Where, exactly, in John 3, do you see an "order"? I am not seeing that.

There isn't an order that is the point. But you believe that a person does a prescribed list and this results in being born again. Nothing like this is described in this verse and this verse completely conflicts with your belief.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

W
But, I do know we have to respond to his drawing, before anything is going to happen.

The first thing that happens is that you have to be changed--if there isn't any change then you will never come to Christ. And this is not of yourself--it is a gift of God.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

There isn't an order that is the point. But you believe that a person does a prescribed list and this results in being born again. Nothing like this is described in this verse and this verse completely conflicts with your belief.

I just said, I was coming to the conclusion that the order is a little different for everyone. But, I know we do have to respond to God's drawing...or nothing happens.

John 3 does not conflict with that belief.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I just said, I was coming to the conclusion that the order is a little different for everyone.

I misinterpreted what you were asking about order thinking you were speaking about faith plus repentance leads to being born again.

Now that I think that I understand what you are asking--order is important and it doesn't differ for everyone. I am not sure why you think that from anything that we have discussed. Can you explain how you came to that conclusion?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I just said, I was coming to the conclusion that the order is a little different for everyone. But, I know we do have to respond to God's drawing...or nothing happens.

If you are one that he draws. If you aren't then you will never come to Christ. For some reason you believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ and you or Alan haven't given me any proof of this thus far.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I misinterpreted what you were asking about order thinking you were speaking about faith plus repentance leads to being born again.

Now that I think that I understand what you are asking--order is important and it doesn't differ for everyone. I am not sure why you think that from anything that we have discussed. Can you explain how you came to that conclusion?

I said that, because I was thinking about the "repentance" process. In my listening to other Christians, I know some who were immediately repentant of their sins, as soon as they gave their life to Christ. For others, it took awhile to sink in and there was a lapse of time, between acceptance and full repentance.

That's just one example.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If you are one that he draws. If you aren't then you will never come to Christ. For some reason you believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ and you or Alan haven't given me any proof of this thus far.

Actually, we've given you at least a couple of verses (may have been more).

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

1 Tim 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I said that, because I was thinking about the "repentance" process. In my listening to other Christians, I know some who were immediately repentant of their sins, as soon as they gave their life to Christ. For others, it took awhile to sink in and there was a lapse of time, between acceptance and full repentance.

That's just one example.

And if both are in Christ regeneration preceded faith and repentance. And the order is the same. So I am still not sure why you say that the order is different.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And if both are in Christ regeneration preceded faith and repentance. And the order is the same. So I am still not sure why you say that the order is different.

That is your belief, Billy. I believe some amount of faith has to come before regeneration.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

John 12 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

John 6:37 "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Christ made all of the above statements. Summarize them for me such that they are all in agreement.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6:37 "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Christ made all of the above statements. Summarize them for me such that they are all in agreement.

God draws everyone.

Some will accept his calling...others will not.

Through his omniscience he knows in advance who will turn to him.

He will raise them up on the last day.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

That is your belief, Billy. I believe some amount of faith has to come before regeneration.

Easton's Bible Dictionary

Kingdom of God
(Matt. 6:33; Mark 1:14, 15; Luke 4:43) ="kingdom of Christ" (Matt. 13:41; 20:21) ="kingdom of Christ and of God" (Eph. 5:5) ="kingdom of David" (Mark 11:10) ="the kingdom" (Matt. 8:12; 13:19) ="kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 3:2; 4:17; 13:41), all denote the same thing under different aspects, viz.1) Christ's mediatorial authority, or his rule on the earth; (2) the blessings and advantages of all kinds that flow from this rule; (3) the subjects of this kingdom taken collectively, or the Church

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.


A person cannot see (let alone enter) the kingdom of God UNLESS they are born again. Salvation takes place when you repent and place your faith in Christ and that point you become a member of God's kingdom. Therefore regeneration must precede this.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

God draws everyone.

None of the verses say that the Father draws everyone.

Originally Posted by Libby

Some will accept his calling...others will not.

Where in these verses does it say that some will accept and others will not?

Originally Posted by Libby

He will raise them up on the last day.

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

The same "them" that are drawn?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

1 Tim 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

This verse says nothing about the Father drawing people to Christ. Not sure why you guys keep bringing this one up.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

God draws everyone.

You keep making the claim that the Father draws everyone to Christ. There are a many who have never heard of Christ. So why do you continue to make the claim that ALL are drawn to Christ?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

This verse says nothing about the Father drawing people to Christ. Not sure why you guys keep bringing this one up.

Because, it logically follows that, if God wants all people to be saved, He would draw them ALL, since that is a requirement of salvation.

What do you do with the verse that says very directly that Christ will draw all men to himself?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You keep making the claim that the Father draws everyone to Christ. There are a many who have never heard of Christ. So why do you continue to make the claim that ALL are drawn to Christ?

I leave that to God. He made the claim, so there must be a way He is doing what He said He would do.

[Libby]

Can you give me any good reason why God would not draw all people to himself?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Because, it logically follows that, if God wants all people to be saved, He would draw them ALL, since that is a requirement of salvation.

But it says absolutely nothing about the Father drawing all men to Christ. You simply ***ume it into the text.

Originally Posted by Libby

What do you do with the verse that says very directly that Christ will draw all men to himself?

John 6:37 "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

The only way to accept all three statements by Christ so that they are not in conflict is that "all people" = all those drawn by the Father OR "all people" refers to all people groups both Jews and Gentiles.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Can you give me any good reason why God would not draw all people to himself?

You changed things a bit here. Do you mean the Father drawing all men to Christ?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But it says absolutely nothing about the Father drawing all men to Christ. You simply ***ume it into the text.

John 6:37 "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

The only way to accept all three statements by Christ so that they are not in conflict is that "all people" = all those drawn by the Father OR "all people" refers to all people groups both Jews and Gentiles.

I don't think that's the only way to accept all three verses. I take them at face value. All means all. All will be drawn and those who respond will be raised on the last day.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You changed things a bit here. Do you mean the Father drawing all men to Christ?

To Christ, yes. I don't see a big difference. Christ is with the Father.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't think that's the only way to accept all three verses. I take them at face value. All means all.

Fine. Let's test your theory of ALL. You believe that Christ draws every single person to himself. Yet not everyone has heard of Christ. This fact alone disproves your belief. How do you explain that?