Free Will

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

To Christ, yes. I don't see a big difference. Christ is with the Father.

Can a person be saved by placing his faith in the Father? Or does salvation come when you place you faith in Christ to save you?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can a person be saved by placing his faith in the Father? Or does salvation come when you place you faith in Christ to save you?

In Christ. He is the way through which we are saved.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

In Christ. He is the way through which we are saved.

Right. So when you said that the Father draws all to the [Father]--ALL here doesn't mean ALL being drawn to Christ?

[Libby]

But, when we are drawn to Christ, we are drawn to the Father and the Holy Spirit, as well, right? When we put our faith in Christ, we also put our faith in "GOD", who has provided a means of salvation for all who accept.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Right. So when you said that the Father draws all to the [Father]--ALL here doesn't mean ALL being drawn to Christ?

Yes, of course. That's why I said, I didn't see a big difference. We are being drawn to God, through faith in Jesus Christ.

[Libby]

Billy, can I ask you something about perseverance? It's totally off topic for this thread, but Dr. Geisler said something about how Calvinists can't even be sure of their own salvation, because they believe you must persevere to the end. If you don't, you were never saved. Is that an accurate portrayal of your belief on perseverance of the saints?

It reminded me a lot of the LDS belief about perseverance to the end.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

But, when we are drawn to Christ, we are drawn to the Father and the Holy Spirit, as well, right? When we put our faith in Christ, we also put our faith in "GOD", who has provided a means of salvation for all who accept.

So I take it that you mean that the Father draws ALL men to Christ NOT that the Father draws ALL men to the [Father]. OK if that is the case and we know that not everyone has even heard of Christ how can you maintain that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

That is your belief, Billy. I believe some amount of faith has to come before regeneration.

Easton's Bible Dictionary

Kingdom of God
(Matt. 6:33; Mark 1:14, 15; Luke 4:43) ="kingdom of Christ" (Matt. 13:41; 20:21) ="kingdom of Christ and of God" (Eph. 5:5) ="kingdom of David" (Mark 11:10) ="the kingdom" (Matt. 8:12; 13:19) ="kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 3:2; 4:17; 13:41), all denote the same thing under different aspects, viz.1) Christ's mediatorial authority, or his rule on the earth; (2) the blessings and advantages of all kinds that flow from this rule; (3) the subjects of this kingdom taken collectively, or the Church

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.


A person cannot see (let alone enter) the kingdom of God UNLESS they are born again. Salvation takes place when you repent and place your faith in Christ and that point you become a member of God's kingdom. Therefore regeneration must precede this.

Comments?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, of course. That's why I said, I didn't see a big difference. We are being drawn to God, through faith in Jesus Christ.

The difference is that you are not saved by placing your faith in the Father--you are saved when you place your faith in Christ. This is a big difference even though you don't seem to think so. Since ALL men have not even heard of Christ how do you continue to say that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So I take it that you mean that the Father draws ALL men to Christ NOT that the Father draws ALL men to the [Father]. OK if that is the case and we know that not everyone has even heard of Christ how can you maintain that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

Because he says he is and I believe him.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.


A person cannot see (let alone enter) the kingdom of God UNLESS they are born again. Salvation takes place when you repent and place your faith in Christ and that point you become a member of God's kingdom. Therefore regeneration must precede this.

Comments?

No, no comments, right now. Maybe later.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, of course. That's why I said, I didn't see a big difference. We are being drawn to God, through faith in Jesus Christ.

Do you disagree with what I wrote here?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Because he says he is and I believe him.

You believe in Him. Great. But how can you believe that the Father has drawn ALL men to Christ when not every single person has even heard of Christ?

[Billyray]

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Why didn't the guys in verse 36 believe according to Jesus?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Do you disagree with what I wrote here?

Here is what you wrote.

Originally Posted by Libby

We are being drawn to God, through faith in Jesus Christ.

"We are being drawn to the Father when we place our faith in Christ."

Where did you come up with this theory?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here is what you wrote.

"We are being drawn to the Father when we place our faith in Christ."

Where did you come up with this theory?

Billy, I think I mentioned on another thread (although, you may not have seen it) that I went to see the movie "Heaven is for Real". It was a beautiful movie (and a true story) about a little boy's trip to Heaven.

I enjoyed the movie, so much, that I decided I wanted to read the book. I heard that the book had many more details than the movie. So, a friend of mine, who had just bought the book, offered to loan it to me. I just this minute finished it, as a matter of fact, and it was even better than the movie!

Anyway, this little boy, who was only four years old, experienced this amazing trip to heaven, when he was in surgery (and almost died) with a burst appendix. In the book, on Good Friday, a few months after the surgery, his dad asked him if he knew why Jesus had died on the cross. The little boy answered him, very simply..."Jesus died so that we could go live with his Daddy".

The weird thing is...I didn't read that part until after I had posted what I did, to you...so, I can't really say that's where I got the idea. That's just what I 'know' in my heart, and when I read that little boy's statement, I knew that it was right on. I think you, surely, must know that, as well.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, I think I mentioned on another thread (although, you may not have seen it) that I went to see the movie "Heaven is for Real". It was a beautiful movie (and a true story) about a little boy's trip to Heaven.

I enjoyed the movie, so much, that I decided I wanted to read the book. I heard that the book had many more details than the movie. So, a friend of mine, who had just bought the book, offered to loan it to me. I just this minute finished it, as a matter of fact, and it was even better than the movie!

Anyway, this little boy, who was only four years old, experienced this amazing trip to heaven, when he was in surgery (and almost died) with a burst appendix. In the book, on Good Friday, a few months after the surgery, his dad asked him if he knew why Jesus had died on the cross. The little boy answered him, very simply..."Jesus died so that we could go live with his Daddy".

The weird thing is...I didn't read that part until after I had posted what I did, to you...so, I can't really say that's where I got the idea. That's just what I 'know' in my heart, and when I read that little boy's statement, I knew that it was right on. I think you, surely, must know that, as well.

I read the book just after it came out but it has nothing to do with what you said "We are being drawn to the Father when we place our faith in Christ."

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I read the book just after it came out but it has nothing to do with what you said "We are being drawn to the Father when we place our faith in Christ."

Oh, but it does...exactly.

Glad you got to read the book. Did you like it?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Oh, but it does...exactly.

Glad you got to read the book. Did you like it?

Yea I thought it was good.

[Libby]

Very good.

I think I'm done with "theorizing" for awhile. I know what I need to know, right now (intuitively). This heady stuff, sometimes confuses me and I really don't like that feeling. I need to step away from it, for awhile, at least.

I really appreciate yours (and Alan's) willingness to go through this with me. It was something I needed to do, because I was allowing Calvinism to become a big stumbling block....really big....it drove me from the church for awhile.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You believe in Him. Great. But how can you believe that the Father has drawn ALL men to Christ when not every single person has even heard of Christ?

Apparently they do not believe God is Sovereign, and that His drawing is contingent upon human response - putting men in the drivers' seats. If God calls ALL men, why on earth would Jesus have stated in Jn. 6:44:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

There is the General Call warning all men to come to Christ or be lost; and there is the particular call, where God draws the elect to salvation in Christ. Those who are drawn know the Master's voice AND WILL NOT FOLLOW ANOTHER.

Ephesians 1 is very clear: "11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. "

Again, God is Sovereign, not men.

[The Pheonix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Free will has been tossed around a lot recently on this board. The problem is that unless a person gives the definition of how he is using this word it can cause a lot of confusion.

One person may use the term "free will" to simply mean making willing choices that the person wants to make.

Another person may use the term "free will" to mean the ability to make any choice at any time independent of a person's nature and independent of God's will.

Perhaps posters could give us some definitions of how they are using this term and then we could proceed to discuss this issue.

If I cannot refuse to accept God, then I cannot chose "too" accept God.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by The Pheonix

If I cannot refuse to accept God, then I cannot chose "too" accept God.

Can you come to Christ without being drawn by the Father?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Apparently they do not believe God is Sovereign, and that His drawing is contingent upon human response - putting men in the drivers' seats. If God calls ALL men, why on earth would Jesus have stated in Jn. 6:44:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

There is the General Call warning all men to come to Christ or be lost; and there is the particular call, where God draws the elect to salvation in Christ. Those who are drawn know the Master's voice AND WILL NOT FOLLOW ANOTHER.

Ephesians 1 is very clear: "11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. "

Again, God is Sovereign, not men.

I believe God is completely sovereign, but I also know that he allows us our will and freedom of choice, otherwise, HE would be responsible for our unbelief, not us.

There is nothing in the verse about God's drawing that says he draws only a few and they will ALL come to Him. That is inferred (inserted) by Calvinists.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I believe God is completely sovereign, but I also know that he allows us our will and freedom of choice, otherwise, HE would be responsible for our unbelief, not us.

There is nothing in the verse about God's drawing that says he draws only a few and they will ALL come to Him. That is inferred (inserted) by Calvinists.

Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Who are "them" in this verse Libby?