Mormonism is claiming they have set aside their Bigotry

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Come on Julie stop bearing false witness..

I'm not. To tell the truth is to tell the whole truth. When you do not do that, you bear false witness. And you continue to do so. Are you going to apologize for saying that I "confess" a belief in which I don't?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

BigJ I was LDS and know your history. Bottom line is that Joseph and Brigham occasionally taught things that were not consistent with lds standard works.

They occasionally taught things that were not consistent with the standard works? (According to you.) So, Billyray---if they were not consistent (as you see it)---which doctrines do we hold to?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Come on Julie stop bearing false witness.. We all know the doctrine of mormonism here.. We know that your god is a glorified man, He BECAME a God through His own obedience to laws and ordinances..

James., does LDS doctrine teach that Jesus Christ was part of the Godhead prior to coming to earth?

The God of the Bible is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. He is not three God But one.. He is the God that has BEEN GOD from everlasting and will remain the only God to everlasting..

James, have you given me scripture from the Book of Mormon that says this very thing?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

And so you don't believe you can back your comments with our scriptures--as you believe our doctrines are not there, right? That is my point. If you don't see anything Joseph Smith teachings in light of truths revealed to Him, you don't understand our doctrines. As I said to Billyray, it is like coming across a tusk and thinking you know the elephant. And you don't. If you want--teach our doctrines USING our scriptures--then you will know you are teaching what we believe.

I already did,.. Your scripture teaches that there are GODS, NOT GOD.. Seems that you won't believe the Plan of salvation taught by the LDS as scripture even though it was created in the mind of Smith.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I already did,.. Your scripture teaches that there ate GODS, NOT GOD.. Seems that you won't believe the Plan of salvation taught by the LDS as scripture even though it was created in the mind of Smith.. IHS jim

The Bible uses the word Elohim which literally means gods. The Bible teaches that God is a God of gods. So far, your scripture teaches there are gods. But please, go ahead and find where I "confess" to believing in three Gods. Your accusation. I am still waiting for you to prove it.

Oh, but I did notice you did not answer my question regarding your understanding of LDS beliefs.

Once again:

James., does LDS doctrine teach that Jesus Christ was part of the Godhead prior to coming to earth?

And:

The God of the Bible is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. He is not three God But one.. He is the God that has BEEN GOD from everlasting and will remain the only God to everlasting..

James, have you given me scripture from the Book of Mormon that says this very thing?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

They occasionally taught things that were not consistent with the standard works? (According to you.) So, Billyray---if they were not consistent (as you see it)---which doctrines do we hold to?

I would recommend that you hold to the Bible and reject all of the other books that you consider scripture--that is my best recommendation for you. But I know that is not what you are asking so here is my take on this issue. Mormonism is unique in that they claim to have living prophets who speak directly with God and guide their people. However if a prophet or leader of the church says something that is controversial the standard lds mantra is to ignore the prophet or leader and stick with the standard works. The problem with this concept is that you have now undermined your own living prophets--which is the unique claim of mormonism--and since what they say is not official scripture then you can't place your trust in your own living prophets.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I would recommend that you hold to the Bible and reject all of the other books that you consider scripture--that is my best recommendation for you. But I know that is not what you are asking so here is my take on this issue. Mormonism is unique in that they claim to have living prophets who speak directly with God and guide their people. On the one hand if a prophet or leader says something that is out of line the standard mantra is to ignore the prophet or leader and stick with the standard works. The problem with this concept is that you have now undermined your own living prophets--which is the unique claim of mormonism--and since what they say is not official scripture then you can't place your trust in your own living prophets.

Actually, this is what you think when in reality, if you misunderstood something of the past, then there is no problem. On the other hand, if the prophet misunderstood something in the past, this is also not a problem, because God does correct His prophets--as can be seen in the Bible as well. I think we even have a donkey helping out with that at one point.

The difference is really that we believe in living prophets (as well as dead ones), but you only believe in dead ones. And those things that are part of your history that you don't agree with, well--you just pretend is it not part of your history or that history does not pertain to your beliefs.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

The difference is really that we believe in living prophets (as well as dead ones), but you only believe in dead ones.

But I just showed you that you don't believe in your living prophets. I gave you the example from Brigham Young who taught about blood atonement and you don't believe this. As I said you claim living prophets then you undermine them and don't believe what they say.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

And those things that are part of your history that you don't agree with, well--you just pretend is it not part of your history or that history does not pertain to your beliefs.

Christianity and mormonism have different claims in this regard so what is a criticism for mormonism isn't one for Christianity. Let me explain. I can criticize the teachings of Brigham Young because he claimed to be a prophet and the members believe that he was a prophet. However if you denied living prophets then in fairness I could only judge you by your standard works. For Christians our standard is the Bible.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

The Bible uses the word Elohim which literally means gods. The Bible teaches that God is a God of gods. So far, your scripture teaches there are gods. But please, go ahead and find where I "confess" to believing in three Gods. Your accusation. I am still waiting for you to prove it.

Oh, but I did notice you did not answer my question regarding your understanding of LDS beliefs.

Once again:



And:

Is it not true, even in mormonism, that Jesus created (formed) this world? Does that not make Him God (Elohim)? And yet the Father is God (Elohim), as is the Holy Spirit. Three persons all called God.. And yet Moses by the Holy Spirit clearly states that YHWH, our ELOHIM is one YHWH (Deut 6:4).. How can this be? The LDS like you chose to ignore The teaching given through Moses in Deut 6:4 and hold Gen 1:26 "Then God [Elohim] said, Let us make man in our image, in our likeness." Also given through Moses.

Can't there be a way to believe both scriptures? That would bring the doctrine of the Trinity up as the only way this can be done.. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons, yet are one God.. So the US, the OUR in Gen 1:26 are the three persons of God and yet their singularity is shouted in Deut 6:4.. Must we go through the fact and the supportive verses again that prove that each member of the Godhead is God? Even in that Jesus confirms the doctrine Moses was given that the YHWH our Elohim is one YHWH..

What did Joseph Smith teach as to the meaning of the words Elohim? Ye said "we have three Gods, at least they are plural.. Either he was right and we should all believe in him. Or he was wrong and only those who have allowed his half truth of God's nature fill their mind can believe him.. The rest of us believe God as He explains His nature that He YHWH, our Lord our God Elohim, is one YHWH.. Since it was taught and repeated by Jesus that is His truth. Since Elohim is a plural noun does that reflect three or more Gods. No It can't and keep the whole of the Bible true. So if you believe Smith you must believe in his teaching and hold that there are three Gods.. You either do so or admit that you are not a TBM but only one that will follow the prophets but not all the way..

You asked "does LDS doctrine teach that Jesus Christ was part of the Godhead prior to coming to earth?" The answer "it does part of the time but there was a time that he was not so".. So you can believe the half truth of mormonism again on this point and teach that He was divine in that state.. Never mind that He could skip all the required steps to receive exaltation, He just did..

Since there was no preexistence for any being that would p*** through a mortal state, other than Jesus, my first answer was correct: "The God of the Bible is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. He is not three Gods But one.. He is the God that has BEEN GOD from everlasting and will remain the only God to everlasting."

Have you not seen what the BofM teaches in 2 Nephi 31:21? There is no "In purpose" in that statement. It is clear that Smith taught that the three Persons of the Trinity are one God.. It is even used in the witness statement of the three witnesses (that Smith wrote and had them sign) Look for yourself it says "And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen." Again there is no "In purpose" stated or implied in that statement.. Then in Moroni 7:22 It is clearly stated that God is from everlasting to everlasting. And yet Smith taught that God became God.. That we have to learn how to become Gods ourselves (History of the Church Vol 6, Http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/History_of_the_Church/ search "learn how" to read the full context of Smith sermon..

Smith definitely teaches a different God than is written of in the BofM.. The God there is Triune. The God there has been God from everlasting and will continue to be the Only God to everlasting.. Smith reinvented his God and as the Armenians would say fell from grace. He walked away from the true and living God into the arms of false gods (Abra 4:1).. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Is it not true, even in mormonism, that Jesus created (formed) this world? Does that not make Him God (Elohim)? And yet the Father is God (Elohim), as is the Holy Spirit. Three persons all called God.. And yet Moses by the Holy Spirit clearly states that YHWH, our ELOHIM is one YHWH (Deut 6:4).. How can this be? The LDS like you chose to ignore The teaching given through Moses in Deut 6:4 and hold Gen 1:26 "Then God [Elohim] said, Let us make man in our image, in our likeness." Also given through Moses.

Can't there be a way to believe both scriptures? That would bring the doctrine of the Trinity up as the only way this can be done.. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons, yet are one God.. So the US, the OUR in Gen 1:26 are the three persons of God and yet their singularity is shouted in Deut 6:4.. Must we go through the fact and the supportive verses again that prove that each member of the Godhead is God? Even in that Jesus confirms the doctrine Moses was given that the YHWH our Elohim is one YHWH..

What did Joseph Smith teach as to the meaning of the words Elohim? Ye said "we have three Gods, at least they are plural.. Either he was right and we should all believe in him. Or he was wrong and only those who have allowed his half truth of God's nature fill their mind can believe him.. The rest of us believe God as He explains His nature that He YHWH, our Lord our God Elohim, is one YHWH.. Since it was taught and repeated by Jesus that is His truth. Since Elohim is a plural noun does that reflect three or more Gods. No It can't and keep the whole of the Bible true. So if you believe Smith you must believe in his teaching and hold that there are three Gods.. You either do so or admit that you are not a TBM but only one that will follow the prophets but not all the way..

You asked "does LDS doctrine teach that Jesus Christ was part of the Godhead prior to coming to earth?" The answer "it does part of the time but there was a time that he was not so".. So you can believe the half truth of mormonism again on this point and teach that He was divine in that state.. Never mind that He could skip all the required steps to receive exaltation, He just did..

Since there was no preexistence for any being that would p*** through a mortal state, other than Jesus, my first answer was correct: "The God of the Bible is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. He is not three Gods But one.. He is the God that has BEEN GOD from everlasting and will remain the only God to everlasting."

Have you not seen what the BofM teaches in 2 Nephi 31:21? There is no "In purpose" in that statement. It is clear that Smith taught that the three Persons of the Trinity are one God.. It is even used in the witness statement of the three witnesses (that Smith wrote and had them sign) Look for yourself it says "And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen." Again there is no "In purpose" stated or implied in that statement.. Then in Moroni 7:22 It is clearly stated that God is from everlasting to everlasting. And yet Smith taught that God became God.. That we have to learn how to become Gods ourselves (History of the Church Vol 6, Http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/History_of_the_Church/ search "learn how" to read the full context of Smith sermon..

Smith definitely teaches a different God than is written of in the BofM.. The God there is Triune. The God there has been God from everlasting and will continue to be the Only God to everlasting.. Smith reinvented his God and as the Armenians would say fell from grace. He walked away from the true and living God into the arms of false gods (Abra 4:1).. IHS jim

As you say I "confess" believing in three Gods, please just cut and paste where I said it. I am still waiting.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

As you say I "confess" believing in three Gods, please just cut and paste where I said it. I am still waiting.

Actually you believe in many more than three gods. Which makes you a polytheist--again another reason to put you outside of mainstream Christianity.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Actually you believe in many more than three gods. Which makes you a polytheist--again another reason to put you outside of mainstream Christianity.

Okay, so now you are making another ***ertion. I am still waiting for James to back what he said.


I guess a polytheist to you is someone who believes in the existence of more than one god. Is that correct?

Does that make David a polytheist?

Psa 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Or Moses?

Deu 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Okay, so now you are making another ***ertion. I am still waiting for James to back what he said.


I guess a polytheist to you is someone who believes in the existence of more than one god. Is that correct?

You are a polytheist by definition. If you don't know what polytheist means I suggest you look it up in the dictionary.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Does that make David a polytheist?


Or Moses?

If you weren't aware--the official Jewish position is that there is only one God. You on the other hand believe in many gods and by dictionary definition that makes you a polytheist. Just one more reason why Christians don't believe that mormons are Christian.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If you weren't aware--the official Jewish position is that there is only one God. You on the other hand believe in many gods and by dictionary definition that makes you a polytheist. Just one more reason why Christians don't believe that mormons are Christian.

If that is so, why do you think both David and Moses called their one God "God of gods"?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

If that is so, why do you think both David and Moses called their one God "God of gods"?

Both David and Moses were surrounded by people that believed in many gods.. They both in their remarks said that God is God even over these gods that were nothing more than the product of men's imaginations.. What did God say to Isaiah? He said, "Is there a God besides me, I know of no other God" (Isaiah 44:8). You like ALL believing LDS want to remove one verse from the Bible and make a religion out of it.. Because the genesis story includes all the persons of God and the plural word Elohim is used to describe Him you want it to mean there are three Gods when God reveals to Moses that the Lord our God is One Lord.. A statement that Jesus Himself taught.. Here you want to include the idols of Egypt and the Canaanites as Gods so as to try to prove there are many Gods.. All you do is deify idols.. That was the same thing that Paul ran into as he said that there are "So-called gods" as he taught that eating meat sacrificed to idols is nothing but meat.. But use these p***ages to make yourself feel good about your idolatry. As for me and my house we reject the teaching of other Gods and worship God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit We will reject the idea that there are three Gods or 10 million gods.. There is but one God who is our YHWH.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

If that is so, why do you think both David and Moses called their one God "God of gods"?

The official Jewish position is that there is only one God, not many gods like you believe. For some reason you can't seem to grasp this OR you are purposefully trying to misrepresent the Jewish faith in order to justify your false beliefs. BTW Moses wrote Deuteronomy.

Deut 6:4 4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The official Jewish position is that there is only one God, not many gods like you believe. For some reason you can't seem to grasp this OR you are purposefully trying to misrepresent the Jewish faith in order to justify your false beliefs.

No, I am not misrepresenting the Jewish faith at all. How do you reconcile the fact that they can call God "God of gods' but only believe in one God, but you cannot do the same for the LDS faith?

Why do you think they call God, God of gods and yet believe in One God?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, I am not misrepresenting the Jewish faith at all.

Great. Then tell me if they believe that there is one God or many gods?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

How do you reconcile the fact that they can call God "God of gods' but only believe in one God, but you cannot do the same for the LDS faith?

Simple. The official Jewish position is that they believe that there is only one God. Whereas mormons believe that there are many gods. Jews are monotheistic and mormons are polytheistic.

Why are you having such a hard time with this BigJ? Or are you still trying to misrepresent their faith in order to justify your false beliefs.

[Billyray]

1 Chronicles 1626 For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the Lord made the heavens.

Are the "gods" in this verse real gods? I mean it says "gods" right therefore you think that these are real gods just like God.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Great. Then tell me if they believe that there is one God or many gods?

One God who is over all gods. At least that is how Moses and David referred to God.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

One God who is over all gods. At least that is how Moses and David referred to God.

So do they believe in one God or many gods?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

1 Chronicles 1626 For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the Lord made the heavens.

Are the "gods" in this verse real gods? I mean it says "gods" right therefore you think that these are real gods just like God.

Here is the KJV of it..
1Ch 16:25 For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods.
1Ch 16:26 For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

So, you believe when he is called "God of gods"--that He is God over all the idols?--or at least that is what David and Moses are saying?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Here is the KJV of it..
1Ch 16:25 For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods.
1Ch 16:26 For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

So, you believe when he is called "God of gods"--that He is God over all the idols?

There is one God and he is God over everything. Now are you going to answer my question?

1 Chronicles 1626 For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the Lord made the heavens.

Are the "gods" in this verse real gods? I mean it says "gods" right therefore you think that these are real gods just like God.