Free Will

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Who are "them" in this verse Libby?

I've answered this already, Billy. The first "them" are those who are being drawn. The second "them" are, obviously, those who turn to Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I've answered this already, Billy. The first "them" are those who are being drawn. The second "them" are, obviously, those who turn to Christ.

Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

The verse says no such thing. There is nothing in that verse to suggest that the first "them" is a completely different group of people than the second "them". In fact the first part of the sentence clearly indicates that the first "them" is not ALL men. You are changing what the verse says to conform to your preconceived beliefs.

What message is Christ trying to share in this verse?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

The verse says no such thing. There is nothing in that verse to suggest that the first "them" is a completely different group of people than the second "them". In fact the first part of the sentence clearly indicates that the first "them" is not ALL men. You are changing what the verse says to conform to your preconceived beliefs.

What message is Christ trying to share in this verse?

Where, in the first part, does it "clearly" indicate that the meaning is not "all men"?

And, yes, the Bible does give us reason to believe that he is drawing all men, when at least a couple of other verses clearly say that he is.

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Where, in the first part, does it "clearly" indicate that the meaning is not "all men"?

And, yes, the Bible does give us reason to believe that he is drawing all men, when at least a couple of other verses clearly say that he is.

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day"

What message is Christ trying to convey with this verse?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Where, in the first part, does it "clearly" indicate that the meaning is not "all men"?

Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them"

"No one can come to me" indicates that there is a group that can't come to Christ and the remaining part of the verse tells us about those who can come to Christ--those who are drawn.

[alanmolstad]

all can come...nothing is stopping anyone but they themselves...

God is not the cause of people not coming to Christ....shame on anyone who thinks God is to blame....

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day"

What message is Christ trying to convey with this verse?

The basic message, as is the whole New Testament, is that salvation is through Jesus Christ. The Father facilitates that by drawing us to him and he will raise us up on the last day.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them"

"No one can come to me" indicates that there is a group that can't come to Christ and the remaining part of the verse tells us about those who can come to Christ--those who are drawn.

It doesn't say anything about a particular "group", Billy. It simply says that the Father must, first, draw us. Other verses (such as the one I quoted) indicate he intends to "draw all men".

[Libby]

Really, we have been over this same territory several times. I don't really want to do an instant replay. We just see it a little differently, is all. I think it's an important difference, but the differences, in understanding, are not going to affect anyone's salvation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The basic message, as is the whole New Testament, is that salvation is through Jesus Christ. The Father facilitates that by drawing us to him and he will raise us up on the last day.

Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day"

But you really didn't address this specific verse. If everyone can come why not simply say that anyone can come and that this is helped along by the Father?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Really, we have been over this same territory several times. I don't really want to do an instant replay. We just see it a little differently, is all. I think it's an important difference, but the differences, in understanding, are not going to affect anyone's salvation.

We have gone over this but you haven't given me a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. And you haven't addressed the fact that many people haven't even heard about Christ so how can you even claim that ALL men have been drawn by the Father to Christ?


John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

What reason did Christ give us to explain why the guys in verse 36 did not believe in Him?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

We have gone over this but you haven't given me a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. And you haven't addressed the fact that many people haven't even heard about Christ so how can you even claim that ALL men have been drawn by the Father to Christ?


John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

What reason did Christ give us to explain why the guys in verse 36 did not believe in Him?

You might want to read the next verse....LOL

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day"

But you really didn't address this specific verse. If everyone can come why not simply say that anyone can come and that this is helped along by the Father?

I haven't said "everyone can come". I have said "everyone is drawn". Not everyone will come. God knows in advance who will come to Him.

And, yes, I have addressed your problem, by quoting a verse in the Bible (it IS a part of the Bible, as well!) that says very plainly that "all men will be drawn". Just because it doesn't say that, in the one verse you keep quoting, doesn't mean it's not in there.

Also, just because your favorite verse doesn't say "all", doesn't mean the intent is not "all". Neither does it say "a few", as you want to claim.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

We have gone over this but you haven't given me a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. And you haven't addressed the fact that many people haven't even heard about Christ so how can you even claim that ALL men have been drawn by the Father to Christ?


John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

What reason did Christ give us to explain why the guys in verse 36 did not believe in Him?

Many will not believe, Billy. God knows in advance who will believe and come to Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I haven't said "everyone can come". I have said "everyone is drawn". Not everyone will come. . .

If everyone can't come to Jesus--as you say--then you have proven to yourself that this group does not include ALL men.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If everyone can't come to Jesus--as you say--then you have proven to yourself that this group does not include ALL men.

They "can" come......but the tears of Jesus were because they "won't" come....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I haven't said "everyone can come". I have said "everyone is drawn". Not everyone will come. .

This is correct!

Good *** Libby!

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

They "can" come......but the tears of Jesus were because they "won't" come....

Yes, "won't" come...not "can't".

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If everyone can't come to Jesus--as you say--then you have proven to yourself that this group does not include ALL men.

All will be drawn (as it says in John 12). Not all will come.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

All will be drawn (as it says in John 12).

John 12 DOESN'T say that the Father will draw ALL men to Christ.

BTW since ALL men have not heard about Jesus how can you possibly believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

They "can" come......but the tears of Jesus were because they "won't" come....

Jn. 6:44:"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day"

That is not what Christ says in John 6:44

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Many will not believe, Billy. God knows in advance who will believe and come to Christ.

You are absolutely right that many will not believe and God certainly know who will be saved. But this doesn't address my question.

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

What reason did Christ give us to explain why the guys in verse 36 did not believe in Him?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You are absolutely right that many will not believe and God certainly know who will be saved. But this doesn't address my question.

John 6
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

What reason did Christ give us to explain why the guys in verse 36 did not believe in Him?

They were not given by the Father.

This goes back to God's omniscience. He knows who will believe. Those are the ones who are given by the Father.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

They were not given by the Father.

This goes back to God's omniscience. He knows who will believe. Those are the ones who are given by the Father.

So you agree with me that the Father gives some men (but not ALL) to Christ and those who are given to Him WILL come to Christ.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you agree with me that the Father gives some men (but not ALL) to Christ and those who are given to Him WILL come to Christ.

Yes, I agree with that.

It's just that I believe it has to do with God's foreknowledge (and not him picking and choosing for no reason).