Free Will

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, I agree with that.

It's just that I believe it has to do with God's foreknowledge (and not him picking and choosing for no reason).

I am not sure if you have thought this one through yet. But in case you have can you tell me how this works exactly other than just saying "foreknowledge"?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am not sure if you have thought this one through yet. But in case you have can you tell me how this works exactly other than just saying "foreknowledge"?

I'm probably not going to have any better answer than you do, for why God would draw only "some" and not all.

All I know is, it has to be arranged so that man is responsible for his unbelief....not God.

God knows who will respond to his drawing and he chooses those people to give to Christ.

[Libby]

It seems like Calvinists are overly zealous in their wish to acknowledge God's sovereignty. In the process, they make him responsible for man's sin (especially the sin of unbelief).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

All I know is, it has to be arranged so that man is responsible for his unbelief....not God.

The basis for sending anyone to Hell is the fact that they did not keep the commandments. So God is just in sending everyone of us to Hell based on this fact alone. Just like a civil judge who punishes a person for breaking the law--the person who broke the law is guilty of his crime and is deserving of punishment. However a judge could in his mercy decide to let that person go even though he deserves punishment. God in His mercy saves some--but not all--even though all are deserving of punishment.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

It seems like Calvinists are overly zealous in their wish to acknowledge God's sovereignty. In the process, they make him responsible for man's sin (especially the sin of unbelief).

See my post above. Man is the one who breaks the commandments so man is responsible for his sin. For some reason you want to blame God for man's sins and I am not sure where you have come up with this unBiblical belief.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

See my post above. Man is the one who breaks the commandments so man is responsible for his sin. For some reason you want to blame God for man's sins and I am not sure where you have come up with this unBiblical belief.

I think you better read my post again. I am NOT blaming God for man's sin. That is what I see as a result of Calvinist doctrine. In other words, that's what I perceive Calvinists as doing. It is the logical conclusion of Calvinist thinking.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The basis for sending anyone to Hell is the fact that they did not keep the commandments. So God is just in sending everyone of us to Hell based on this fact alone. Just like a civil judge who punishes a person for breaking the law--the person who broke the law is guilty of his crime and is deserving of punishment. However a judge could in his mercy decide to let that person go even though he deserves punishment. God in His mercy saves some--but not all--even though all are deserving of punishment.

God is a just God...and a very loving God. He does not simply pick and choose. Even the Bible says that he draws all men to himself. That he so loves "the world" that he gave his only begotten Son.

He doesn't pick and choose. He leaves that decision to us. That's the only fair and loving thing to do.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think you better read my post again. I am NOT blaming God for man's sin. That is what I see as a result of Calvinist doctrine. In other words, that's what I perceive Calvinists as doing. It is the logical conclusion of Calvinist thinking.

OK. Here is your post.

Originally Posted by Libby

It seems like Calvinists are overly zealous in their wish to acknowledge God's sovereignty. In the process, they make him responsible for man's sin (especially the sin of unbelief).

Calvinists don't make God responsible for man's sin. Man is responsible for his sins. So why did you say "In the process, they make him responsible for man's sin ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

God is a just God...

OK let's test what you said. If God is "just" what would be His response for someone who breaks His laws?

Merriam Webster Dictionary
1
a : having a basis in or conforming to fact or reason : reasonable <a just but not a generous decision>
b archaic : faithful to an original
c : conforming to a standard of correctness : proper <just proportions>
2
a (1) : acting or being in conformity with what is morally upright or good : righteous <a just war> (2) : being what is merited : deserved <a just punishment>
b : legally correct : lawful <just ***le to an estate>

Dictionary.com
JUST
adjective
1.guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness: We hope to be just in our understanding of such difficult situations.
2.done or made according to principle; equitable; proper: a just reply.
3.based on right; rightful; lawful: a just claim.
4.in keeping with truth or fact; true; correct: a just ****ysis.
5.given or awarded rightly; deserved, as a sentence, punishment, or reward: a just penalty.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

God is a just God...and a very loving God. . .He doesn't pick and choose.

Romans 9
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Romans 9
17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

OK. Here is your post.

Calvinists don't make God responsible for man's sin. Man is responsible for his sins. So why did you say "In the process, they make him responsible for man's sin ?

I'm talking about salvation and unbelief, specifically, Billy. If God is just and he sets out to save man from sin, it would be "unjust" (unfair) to choose only a few, for the opportunity, and leave the rest to parish in their sins. A loving and just God would simply not do that...and the Bible says God does not do that. Salvation is for all who will come to him, when he draws them. And, "he draws all men to himself".

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 9
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Romans 9
17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

We already discussed this. I'm not doing a repeat. Most of this is ALREADY a repeat.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm talking about salvation and unbelief, specifically, Billy.

So you seem to be OK with the fact that men willfully disobey God's commandments, that the basis for sending anyone to Hell is breaking the commandments, and man is the one who is responsible disobeying God's commandments. If that is the case what would a "just" judge do in this case?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

We already discussed this. I'm not doing a repeat. Most of this is ALREADY a repeat.

Yet you brought it up again and you realize that these verses disprove what you have said so now you want to say that you don't want to talk about it. Thats fine--but if you really don't want to talk about it then perhaps you shouldn't keep bringing it up.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you agree with me that the Father gives some men (but not ALL) to Christ and those who are given to Him WILL come to Christ.

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, I agree with that.
It's just that I believe it has to do with God's foreknowledge (and not him picking and choosing for no reason).

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am not sure if you have thought this one through yet. But in case you have can you tell me how this works exactly other than just saying "foreknowledge"?

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm probably not going to have any better answer than you do, for why God would draw only "some" and not all.

All I know is, it has to be arranged so that man is responsible for his unbelief....not God.

God knows who will respond to his drawing and he chooses those people to give to Christ.

Libby stop and think about your position for a few minutes and try to come up with an answer. Perhaps you will see the problems that you face with your position.

Can you tell me how this works exactly other than just saying "foreknowledge"?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Yet you brought it up again and you realize that these verses disprove what you have said so now you want to say that you don't want to talk about it. Thats fine--but if you really don't want to talk about it then perhaps you shouldn't keep bringing it up.

Actually, I did not start this again. Apologette did. (even though she didn't like that we were discussing it here)

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Yet you brought it up again and you realize that these verses disprove what you have said so now you want to say that you don't want to talk about it. Thats fine--but if you really don't want to talk about it then perhaps you shouldn't keep bringing it up.

No, Billy, I don't believe any of your verses disprove anything I have said. I just don't think it's necessary to do this again. Go back and read this thread from the beginning. I've addressed everything you are bringing up. You may not agree with the way I addressed it, but you do have my thinking and reasoning (from the Bible) on this subject.

I don't know exactly how it all works (I am not God)...but, I don't think you do either.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, Billy, I don't believe any of your verses disprove anything I have said. I just don't think it's necessary to do this again. Go back and read this thread from the beginning. I've addressed everything you are bringing up. You may not agree with the way I addressed it, but you do have my thinking and reasoning (from the Bible) on this subject.

I don't know exactly how it all works (I am not God)...but, I don't think you do either.

If you don't know about it why not look at what God has given us in the scriptures?

Originally Posted by Libby

God is a just God...and a very loving God. . .He doesn't pick and choose.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 9
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Romans 9
17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

Didn't God pick Jacob over Esau? Does God love Esau? Didn't God raise up the Pharaoh for a specific purpose? What was that purpose?

[Libby]

I meant, he doesn't choose for salvation (without foreknowledge). My focus is salvation.

We talked about the above, before. Of course, God has used people for his various purposes.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I meant, he doesn't choose for salvation (without foreknowledge). My focus is salvation.

But tell me exactly what you mean when you say "he doesn't choose for salvation (without foreknowledge)"

Does He see the person coming to Christ on his own? What exactly do you mean when you say "foreknowledge" as it pertains to salvation?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

We talked about the above, before. Of course, God has used people for his various purposes.

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:

Did God use "foreknowledge" when choosing Jacob (for "various purposes")?

[alanmolstad]

Jacob over Esau always had Free Will.......always....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Does He see the person coming to Christ on his own?

every person must do so....You cant come to Christ for another...only yourself.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Didn't God raise up the Pharaoh for a specific purpose?

Pharaoh always had Free Will........always....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

It seems like Calvinists are overly zealous in their wish to acknowledge God's sovereignty. In the process, they make him responsible for man's sin (especially the sin of unbelief).

This is why we see so many people understand that Calvinism is simply very wrong....its a man's idea not found in the Bible...