Free Will

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

did god ever ask us to flap our arms and fly to the moon to be saved?......why not?


.

so....what this means is that everything God asked a person to do was based on the idea that the guy could do it.
Even when Peter was asked to walk on water, ...guess what?...Jesus asked him to do that because Jesus knew he could do that....

Now Im not saying that just because i was asked to do something it means its going to be easy....nor is just being asked mean we always will do it...
But if we are asked it is ONLY because we can do what was asked....

If we "could not" do what was asked then God "could not" blame us for not doing it.

But if we are asked to do something that we can do, and we refuse to do it, then we can be blamed for it because we "would not"
(see Matthew 23:37)

[Libby]

I think some LDS would agree with Alan. I have seen some say that we do have the ability to keep all of the commandments.

Anyway...I think this is all getting a bit confusing.

Billy, you have said, yourself, that we have the "ability" to come to Christ. We just don't have the "desire". Our desire is to sin. But, on the other hand, you have also said that we really don't have the "ability" to keep all of the commandments, perfectly (and I have agreed with that).

Alan is, at least, being consistent in saying that we have the ability, but not the desire. Our sin nature has more or less corrupted any desire to turn to God...which is why we need God ***isting us, in order to come to Him. He also had to provide atonement for our sins (through His Son, Jesus Christ).

So CAN WE keep all of the commandments? Since they are, in large part, a matter of the "heart" (and the human heart is corrupted by sin), we usually say "no" to that question...we cannot keep the commandments perfectly...not because we could not physically do it, but because our hearts are corrupted. The Pharisees were good commandment keepers, physically, but their hearts were corrupted by sin, which meant they were not keeping the law "perfectly". THEY thought they were keeping the law perfectly, but Jesus could see into their hearts.

So, do we have the ability to keep the commandments perfectly? It seems to me that, because of our corrupted sin nature, we do not. That's the exact reason we needed Jesus Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think some LDS would agree with Alan. I have seen some say that we do have the ability to keep all of the commandments.

In all my time dealing with lds I can recall only one time that a mormon claims that it is possible to keep all of the commandments. Not a single Christian that I no agrees with Alan, and with the exception of one lds member that I came across they don't agree with him either. He is on his own on this one. This should make him pause and reconsider his position on this one. Maybe you can talk some sense into him because he certainly won't listen to me. As I noted above this is a perfect example of the Pelagian heresy.

[alanmolstad]

Did Jesus ever once instruct us that we did not have to keep the commandments>?

Did Christ ever once teach that the commandments were just unattainable goals?,

Did God teach that we dont have to worry about them and keep them?

When Christ tells us to keep His commandments, is he serious or just kidding around?

[alanmolstad]

The one thing you have to always remember is, that if God commanded us to do something, it is ONLY because He knows we "could".....

Im not saying we "would"......but the fact that our loving father told us to do something means automatically that it was something we could do....



There is not a single verse in the bible to say different....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, you have said, yourself, that we have the "ability" to come to Christ. We just don't have the "desire".

I don't recall ever saying that those who are not regenerated have the "ability" to come to Christ. Link me to my post (or posts) where I have said this because I will need to correct it. Just so you are clear on my position I will restate it here again for you. Those who have heard about Christ have the opportunity and have the choice to either accept Him or reject Him. But those who are un-regenerate do not have the ability to come to Christ. The same goes for the commandments--people have the opportunity and have the choice to either obey or disobey the commandments. But they do not have the ability to keep the commandments.

Originally Posted by Libby

Alan is, at least, being consistent in saying that we have the ability, but not the desire.

You are absolutely correct Alan is at least being consistent with his response. He claims "free will" and he believes that anyone at anytime can come to Christ (even prior to being drawn by the Father) and he believes that a person is capable of keeping ALL of the commandments. Although he is being consistent--which I commend him for at least being consistent--he is wrong on both points.

I am also being consistent in my position which is that we have a choice and an opportunity to obey the commandments and to follow Christ but we do not have the ability to do either prior to regeneration. Notice that I am being consistent but my position is opposite that of Alan's position.

1. We are given commandments
2. We have the opportunity and have a choice to either obey or disobey the commandments
3. If we break the commandments we have committed a sin and we are responsible and deserve punishment
4. We do not have the ability to keep ALL of the commandments.

Libby these questions are directed at you because they are the same criticisms that you have laid against Calvinism (with respect to election)

1. Do we have a "real" choice to obey the commandments?

2. If a person is unable to keep all of the commandments is it fair for God to punish him for not keeping the commandments?

[alanmolstad]

what we get when we read many of the sermons of Jesus, are his instructions on HOW to keep the Commandments....

Jesus was teaching us the correct way to KEEP the Commandments....

Over and over Jesus carefully teaches how he wants us to keep His commandments....


There is not even a hint in the sermons of Christ that the commandments were not to be kept.
So this means that the reason the commandments were given to us is because God knew we have the ability to keep them...thus when we fail its not the fault of the commandment...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So this means that the reason the commandments were given to us is because God knew we have the ability to keep them...

Alan you should reconsider your position because it is false. Here is my challenge to you--try to find a single Christian on this board--or anywhere else for that matter--and see it he or she agrees with you that it is possible to keep ALL of the commandments and live a perfect life just like Christ.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

(even prior to being drawn by the Father) ?

once more...Billy inventing ****,,,,,,,,

Sorry billy, never once said that, so you are totally caught red-handed again making things up and painting people with your version of reality...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here is my challenge to you--try to find a single Christian ......

Matthew 19:16 - 21.......Jesus is the guy I get these ideas from.
Take it up with him , if you get a chance....


So my advice is for you to "Stop Blaming The Commandments"

[alanmolstad]

take a commandment of example...like do not Kill, or murder,,,,or whatever its called in the Bible.

We are told to keep this commandment.....
Did you keep it today?......

if the answer is yes, then what we know is the commandment is within human ability to keep....so we cant blame the Commandment.
We cant say, "no one can keep that" because we see clearly that we can keep it.

Thus from time to time when we see someone break this Commandment we cant rush to defend them by saying, "Oh that Commandment is too hard for anyone to keep"

So the Commandment is correct ....and cant be blamed.


We also know that we humans have the ability to keep the commandment too....that we have the ability within our Free Will to decide to keep this Commandment...
So this points us the the one thing that seems to be key to our keeping a Commandment or not keeping it...."Free Will"

[alanmolstad]

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

In all my time dealing with lds I can recall only one time that a mormon claims that it is possible to keep all of the commandments.

Perfect obedience...becoming perfect, like Christ, is the main goal in Mormonism. Progressing towards godhood. The example Julie gave, of learning to ride a bicycle, first with help (from Jesus) and then, finally, on your own.

Not a single Christian that I no agrees with Alan, and with the exception of one lds member that I came across they don't agree with him either. He is on his own on this one. This should make him pause and reconsider his position on this one. Maybe you can talk some sense into him because he certainly won't listen to me. As I noted above this is a perfect example of the Pelagian heresy.

Had to refresh my memory on Pelagianism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagianism

Pelagianism is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special Divine aid.

I'm not sure that is exactly Alan's believe? That our nature is completely untouched by the sin of Adam and Eve? Alan?

[alanmolstad]

all I have ever said is this...

Man has free Will, and God is Sovereign.

in the cross of Christ God is drawing all men to himself.

The universe is speaking to us and showing us clearly the invisible nature of God...This is why no man can say, "God never reached out to me" because the very universe itself is constantly from the beginning testifying as to the nature of God and is always drawing us to the Lord.

Therefore , because the universe does not 'accidentally" show us so clearly seen things about God, no man has valid reason not to respond to the calling of God to believe.
So no man can say, "Something yet must happen".....for God is not sitting around waiting until we do something before he draws us to the Cross, ,,,rather the truth is that from the very beginning of time the Lord has designed the universe to proclaim God's love....

This is not an accident....it's the PLAN!

God is reaching out to us!

God is drawing us!......
Not might....not maybe....not sometimes.....

"IS" drawing us to Himself though the cross of Christ.....both believer and non-believer.

NOW...is the time of salvation.
NOW is the day......
Nothing needs to yet happen...Nothing is needed more..

if something was yet needed to wait for, then the unbeliever could be justified in not believing because he could say, "I waited for what was needed but never received"

ALL have received what is needed to believe, because the Whole Universe of the things made already and constantly proclaims the Lord's nature.

as for the commandments?.....
They were not given to the birds, for the birds could not follow them.
They were not given to the rocks and trees, for the rocks and trees could not keep them.

But they were given to men, because men can keep them.
and that is why Jesus always asked us to keep them.....
Jesus never asked us to do things we could not do.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Perfect obedience...becoming perfect, like Christ, is the main goal in Mormonism. Progressing towards godhood. The example Julie gave, of learning to ride a bicycle, first with help (from Jesus) and then, finally, on your own.

But even BigJ would not make the claim that Alan has made. BigJ has stressed repentance. However I would love to hear her make that claim because that would make it the second mormon to make this claim and it would be a very interesting discussion using the Bible. I haven't done so with Alan because he flat out refuses to listen. At least BigJ will read what I have written.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't recall ever saying that those who are not regenerated have the "ability" to come to Christ. Link me to my post (or posts) where I have said this because I will need to correct it.

I haven't had a chance to look back (and my memory is not perfect), but I think you have said, something to the effect that we could choose Christ..and I mistook that as meaning we have the "ability". In retrospect, I do know your position on this.

Just so you are clear on my position I will restate it here again for you. Those who have heard about Christ have the opportunity and have the choice to either accept Him or reject Him. But those who are un-regenerate do not have the ability to come to Christ. The same goes for the commandments--people have the opportunity and have the choice to either obey or disobey the commandments. But they do not have the ability to keep the commandments.

Okay, thank you for the clarification.

You are absolutely correct Alan is at least being consistent with his response. He claims "free will" and he believes that anyone at anytime can come to Christ (even prior to being drawn by the Father) and he believes that a person is capable of keeping ALL of the commandments. Although he is being consistent--which I commend him for at least being consistent--he is wrong on both points.

He might be, in my opinion, as well, but I would like further clarification.

I am also being consistent in my position which is that we have a choice and an opportunity to obey the commandments and to follow Christ but we do not have the ability to do either prior to regeneration. Notice that I am being consistent but my position is opposite that of Alan's position.

1. We are given commandments
2. We have the opportunity and have a choice to either obey or disobey the commandments
3. If we break the commandments we have committed a sin and we are responsible and deserve punishment
4. We do not have the ability to keep ALL of the commandments.

You're being consistent, insofar as you believe we are so damaged by sin that we cannot do any "good", including turning to Christ, without a complete makeover from God.

I seem to find myself somewhere in between you and Alan. I do believe we are damaged by sin. I don't believe we are so damaged that we have to be completely regenerated before we can make "real" choices. But, I do believe we require some help from God (His generous and loving grace/his drawing) in order to come to Him.

Libby these questions are directed at you because they are the same criticisms that you have laid against Calvinism (with respect to election)

1. Do we have a "real" choice to obey the commandments?

I think we can obey a lot of the commandments, if we choose to, but can we do it PERFECTLY, as is required by God? No. Not even close.

2. If a person is unable to keep all of the commandments is it fair for God to punish him for not keeping the commandments?

I don't know if "fair" is really the word I would use. It's just that God, Himself, is Holy and perfect, and the Bible says unclean/unholy things cannot dwell in the Presence of the Lord.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm not sure that is exactly Alan's believe? That our nature is completely untouched by the sin of Adam and Eve? Alan?

This was an important debate in the 5th century that developed between Augustine and Pelagius. Pelagius took issue with what Augustine wrote which sparked the debate. A little snippet about this is posted below by Sproul and I included the link so you can read a little bit more. Or google Augustine vs Pelagius debate.

The Pelagian Controversy

by R.C. Sproul


“Grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire.” This p***age from the pen of Saint Augustine of Hippo was the teaching of the great theologian that provoked one of the most important controversies in the history of the church, and one that was roused to fury in the early years of the fifth century. . ."

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articl...n-controversy/

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I haven't had a chance to look back (and my memory is not perfect), but I think you have said, something to the effect that we could choose Christ..and I mistook that as meaning we have the "ability". In retrospect, I do know your position on this.

1. We are given commandments
2. We have the opportunity and have a choice to either obey or disobey the commandments
3. If we break the commandments we have committed a sin and we are responsible and deserve punishment
4. We do not have the ability to keep ALL of the commandments.

I have the same position for obedience to the commandments as I do with coming to Christ by faith.

[alanmolstad]

all I have ever said is this...

Man has free Will, and God is Sovereign.

in the cross of Christ God is drawing all men to himself.

The universe is speaking to us and showing us clearly the invisible nature of God...This is why no man can say, "God never reached out to me" because the very universe itself is constantly from the beginning testifying as to the nature of God and is always drawing us to the Lord.

Therefore , because the universe does not 'accidentally" show us so clearly seen things about God, no man has valid reason not to respond to the calling of God to believe.
So no man can say, "Something yet must happen".....for God is not sitting around waiting until we do something before he draws us to the Cross, ,,,rather the truth is that from the very beginning of time the Lord has designed the universe to proclaim God's love....

This is not an accident....it's the PLAN!

God is reaching out to us!

God is drawing us!......
Not might....not maybe....not sometimes.....

"IS" drawing us to Himself though the cross of Christ.....both believer and non-believer.

NOW...is the time of salvation.
NOW is the day......
Nothing needs to yet happen...Nothing is needed more..

if something was yet needed to wait for, then the unbeliever could be justified in not believing because he could say, "I waited for what was needed but never received"

ALL have received what is needed to believe, because the Whole Universe of the things made already and constantly proclaims the Lord's nature.

as for the commandments?.....
They were not given to the birds, for the birds could not follow them.
They were not given to the rocks and trees, for the rocks and trees could not keep them.

But they were given to men, because men can keep them.
and that is why Jesus always asked us to keep them.....
Jesus never asked us to do things we could not do.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

think we can obey a lot of the commandments, if we choose to, but can we do it PERFECTLY, as is required by God? No. Not even close.

1. We are given commandments
2. We have the opportunity and have a choice to either obey or disobey the commandments
3. If we break the commandments we have committed a sin and we are responsible and deserve punishment
4. We do not have the ability to keep ALL of the commandments.

But looking at the four points about do you think that we make "real" choices when we choose to obey or disobey the commandments?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

all I have ever said is this...

Man has free Will, and God is Sovereign.

in the cross of Christ God is drawing all men to himself.

The universe is speaking to us and showing us clearly the invisible nature of God...This is why no man can say, "God never reached out to me" because the very universe itself is constantly from the beginning testifying as to the nature of God and is always drawing us to the Lord.

Therefore , because the universe does not 'accidentally" show us so clearly seen things about God, no man has valid reason not to respond to the calling of God to believe.
So no man can say, "Something yet must happen".....for God is not sitting around waiting until we do something before he draws us to the Cross, ,,,rather the truth is that from the very beginning of time the Lord has designed the universe to proclaim God's love....

This is not an accident....it's the PLAN!

God is reaching out to us!

God is drawing us!......
Not might....not maybe....not sometimes.....

"IS" drawing us to Himself though the cross of Christ.....both believer and non-believer.

NOW...is the time of salvation.
NOW is the day......
Nothing needs to yet happen...Nothing is needed more..

if something was yet needed to wait for, then the unbeliever could be justified in not believing because he could say, "I waited for what was needed but never received"

ALL have received what is needed to believe, because the Whole Universe of the things made already and constantly proclaims the Lord's nature.

as for the commandments?.....
They were not given to the birds, for the birds could not follow them.
They were not given to the rocks and trees, for the rocks and trees could not keep them.

But they were given to men, because men can keep them.
and that is why Jesus always asked us to keep them.....
Jesus never asked us to do things we could not do.

Okay, I completely agree with you that God is drawing all of us, all the time..in many different ways. I believe that drawing is by His grace and love for us...and through that drawing, we have the ability to say "yes" or "no" to Him. If we say "yes", he continues to draw and bring us home. If we ignore him and continue going our own way, pretty soon we're not "hearing" him, anymore.

As for the commandments, I agree that we have some ability to keep them. I just don't believe we have the ability to keep them "perfectly". Our nature is very "sin-prone", starting with the fall. Even after regeneration, we still sin, sometimes...but, at least, we are more aware of our sins and repent..and have Christ to cover us.

So, do you believe we can be "perfect" and completely sin free, if we choose, Alan? I'm not clear on that.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

So, do you believe we can be "perfect" and completely sin free, if we choose, Alan? I'm not clear on that.

Jesus seemed to think so...go read John 8:11

Jesus didnt tell the girl to "go try to cut down on the bigger sins".....or....."Try to do a few good things to counter all the bad things you will be doing"

Or....."Dont try to be sinless, rather just do the best you can"



What did he command?


It's the same he asks of you and I today too...Nothing has changed.
people back then are the same as people today.
God back then is the same God today, nothing has changed....God never asked her to do something she could not do.

But when any person sins, we have a advocate, and he will clean us of all sin.

yes, clean of all sin.

[Christian]

libby posted:
Okay, I completely agree with you that God is drawing all of us, all the time..in many different ways.

SCRIPTURE never says that. SCRIPTURE says:
Matt 7:13-14
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
NKJV

SCRIPTURE ALSO SAYS:

John 6:44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
NKJV

John 6:65
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
NKJV

BOTH of those p***ages indicate that NOT EVERYONE is drawn to Jesus.

I believe that drawing is by His grace and love for us...and through that drawing, we have the ability to say "yes" or "no" to Him. If we say "yes", he continues to draw and bring us home. If we ignore him and continue going our own way, pretty soon we're not "hearing" him, anymore.

Not according to the scriptures above.

As for the commandments, I agree that we have some ability to keep them. I just don't believe we have the ability to keep them "perfectly". Our nature is very "sin-prone", starting with the fall. Even after regeneration, we still sin, sometimes...but, at least, we are more aware of our sins and repent..and have Christ to cover us.

And since the 10 commandments are NOT the commandments we are under but were part of THE LAW that we ARE NOT UNDER, it doesn't matter that you don't keep the Sabbath (Sa****ay, NOT WORKING AT ALL), or that you don't offer rams, lambs, oxen, goats, or turtledoves for sacrifices.

The commandments (Literally 'commands') we ARE under are the ones JESUS gave. . .we are STEWARDS of GOD'S goods, we are to LOVE THE LORD AND LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS.

No, we do NOT have the ability to keep all of the commandments. ONLY ONE PERSON EVER did that, and He is Jesus.

So, do you believe we can be "perfect" and completely sin free, if we choose, Alan? I'm not clear on that.

If THAT WERE POSSIBLE, why would Jesus have had to die on the cross?


In the Name of Jesus,
fish

[Libby]

I want to add...the reason I don't believe the topic of "salvation" and "general sinning" are quite the same is, because God DID give us a way out of our sins through Jesus Christ. If he was so generous as to extend that "way" for us to come to Him, why would He not be generous and loving enough to extend it to ALL?

That doesn't make sense to me.

[Libby]

BOTH of those p***ages indicate that NOT EVERYONE is drawn to Jesus.

They don't indicate that "not everyone is drawn". They do indicate that Jesus is the "narrow gate"..and not everyone will accept the call.

Hi Christian. Welcome to the discussion.