Free Will

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

You left out the final reason whey people go to hell:
People go to Hell because they have been given God's laws and have broken them and God chose to not save them.

If a person kept ALL of the commandments and lived a perfect life would that person live with God OR would he receive punishments? If you say punishment what would be the basis for that punishment?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

That is unfair discrimination, because it's not fair to save a few of the people from drowning when all of them broke the rules....

If 10 people are guilty of murder and one is let off of the hook is it unfair to punish the remaining murderers who are guilty of their crime?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But you have yet to show me from the Bible that your position is correct. You have a point of view that feels right to you and you are digging and scratching to find anything to support your position--while ignoring verse after verse that shows that your position is wrong.

Billy, this is simply not true. I've given Bible quotes that completely support my position. I've actually quoted a lot more from the Bible than you have. You keep giving me the same couple of verses over and over.

I'll get back to the other in awhile.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, this is simply not true. I've given Bible quotes that completely support my position. I've actually quoted a lot more from the Bible than you have. You keep giving me the same couple of verses over and over.

I disagree with your ***essment but I am happy to go over again with you. Let's start with the major point of contention which is whether or not the Father draws ALL men to Christ. You have said that you have given me lots of verses but I don't recall you giving me a single verse that shows that the Father has drawn ALL men to Christ. Can you give me all of the verses that you are speaking about?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

People go to Hell because they have been given God's laws and have broken them. That is the basis for sending anyone to Hell. For some reason you and Libby seem to forget that. And Alan you have said yourself that every single one of us is capable of keeping all of the commandments just like Jesus.

The question I was asked was dealing with the matter of what is the fate of people that have never heard of Jesus?
the answer I have, is also the answer of Dr Walter Martin: "That no person is sent to hell because they have not heard of Christ"

Also, a person ends up in Hell because they have not responded to the light from heaven they have received.
This is what Walter talks about in the video.....He quotes the correct Scriptures to support his views and wraps it up nicely.

Now I dont know what else you are asking?.....


There is a basic way all of us are judged that Jesus pointed out...."Forgive us our sins as we forgive others"
Not only is this the way we in the church are judged by our Father, but this also is how they who never hear of the Lord are judged too!

Some Christians tend to fall into the trap of thinking that just because a person lives in a part of the world where the church has not yet reached that there is "no hope" for such people.
But while it may be true that people can live out of reach of the church, they NEVER are out of reach of God.
God is with them in every moment of their lives...God is always there, always reaching out to them with the light of heaven.

The Bible is very clear, if we search for God we will FIND him!.......We will find Him, even if we never are lucky enugh to read a page of the Bible, or ever hear the name of "Jesus"

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If 10 people are guilty of murder and one is let off of the hook is it unfair to punish the remaining murderers who are guilty of their crime?

Thats not really whats going on...

Its more like this...
!0 people are guilty of murder....all are sentenced to death.
But just before they are put to death an offer of forgiveness is given to all 10.

The ones that accept the offer of forgiveness get to walk out of jail free.

The ones that don't accept the offer are already convicted.

So this is all totally based on God being totally equal in his offer of salvation to men.

The problem is that some people refuse to accept the offer.
But Free Will is the reason for this....we are free and this means that not only can we decide to do a smart thing, we can also decide to not do a smart thing....
It's up to us.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you believe that a person can be saved independent of Christ?

The thing is, Christ is god....and God is everywhere!....God is clearly seen in the things that are made...
Thus even if you never get a chance to learn about Jesus you still can search for god no matter what.
And thje bible teaches that if you search for God you will find him!

So, this means that even if you live in a far off land, (Like in an Arab country) with no way for the christian message to reach you, you are never far from god.
God is with you every day of your life...always with you...always drawing you to himself...always teaching you about Himself...

[alanmolstad]

there,,,that should do....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If a person kept ALL of the commandments and lived a perfect life would that person live ?

Matthew 19:17

[alanmolstad]

so once again....the Son did nothing unless he saw the father doing it....thus when we read that the son draws people we understand that it is only because the Son sees the father drawing all people to Himself.

Thus the father draws all men to himself though the cross of Christ...

To disagree with this understanding is to show you dont have any idea about who Christ was........nor the relationship he has with the father....
remember by himself the son could do what?......NOTHING!


so if a person thinks that the son can draw people to himself but this does not mean the Father was also drawing them to himsef?...then you have left the christian faith and are mixed up in something else.

When the son draws all people, the father and the Spirit are also drawing them as well..for the son had no authority to do anything that the father did not agree with.......

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Thats not really whats going on...

Its more like this...
!0 people are guilty of murder....all are sentenced to death.
But just before they are put to death an offer of forgiveness is given to all 10.

The ones that accept the offer of forgiveness get to walk out of jail free.

The ones that don't accept the offer are already convicted.

So this is all totally based on God being totally equal in his offer of salvation to men.

The problem is that some people refuse to accept the offer.
But Free Will is the reason for this....we are free and this means that not only can we decide to do a smart thing, we can also decide to not do a smart thing....
It's up to us.

Yes, this is almost exactly what I was going to say.

Billy, you are dancing all around the main issue, which is God extending salvation to ALL people, not just a few. On most everything else, I AGREE with you.

You did start to talk about the Old Testament and how God had a chosen people, back then. Yes, he did! But, were all of them saved? Nope!

AND THEN, in the NEW Testament, salvation was extended to ALL people!

John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Again, as with Israel, some will accept, some will not.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If 10 people are guilty of murder and one is let off of the hook is it unfair to punish the remaining murderers who are guilty of their crime?

Yes, it is unfair, if there is nothing else going on that would justify such capriciousness.

You said THE reason people go to hell is that they have "been given God's laws and have broken them."

If that is THE reason--the ONLY thing that's going on--then no one should be let off the hook. Otherwise the people who go to hell could rightly say "But those people you're letting into heaven are people who have been given God's laws and have broken them, and they aren't going to hell."


Fairness when punishing people requires that all who are equally guilty, are equally punished unless some of them have done something to mitigate their punishment. Calvinists don't like that reasoning because to them it would mean that people play some role in their own salvation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Yes, it is unfair, if there is nothing else going on that would justify such capriciousness.

So you would agree with letting the other 9 convicted murderers go free? Would you say that this is a just punishment for their crimes?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The question I was asked was dealing with the matter of what is the fate of people that have never heard of Jesus?
the answer I have, is also the answer of Dr Walter Martin: "That no person is sent to hell because they have not heard of Christ"

I would like to get a clear understanding of what you believe. From your post it seems like you are saying that faith in Christ is not required for salvation. Is that a fair ***essment of what you believe?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, you are dancing all around the main issue, which is God extending salvation to ALL people, not just a few.

One thing that you and Alan seem to leave out it that anyone who has heard about Christ is given the invitation to come to Christ and anyone who places their faith in Him will be saved. Those who are not regenerated make a conscious choice and it is the choice that they want to make when they reject Him. They are not forced by God to reject Christ just like they are not forced by God to break the commandments--they choose to do so.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Fairness when punishing people requires that all who are equally guilty, are equally punished.

Where did you come up with this idea? Would you say that this applies to the judicial system as well?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I would like to get a clear understanding of what you believe. From your post it seems like you are saying that faith in Christ is not required for salvation. Is that a fair ***essment of what you believe?

what did you hear in the video?.......is that what you heard?......

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

One thing that you and Alan seem to leave out it .

can you name a place where that was left out?.....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, this is almost exactly what I was going to say.

.

Then you have learned well my Padawan

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Where did you come up with this idea? Would you say that this applies to the judicial system as well?

The people who are convicted and guilty are about to receive their sentence, when the Lord offers a way to be forgiven.

But the Lord does not force us to accept his forgiveness.....

And because the Lord loves the whole world, the offer goes out to all men....God is always drawing us to himself.
if you respond to the light from heaven you receive you will be drawn to the greater light of Christ....

so the punishment is equal...and the offer of salvation is equal...and all men have the same free will to decide...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

what did you hear in the video?.......is that what you heard?......

Alan I am asking you what YOU believe. So that is why I said "I would like to get a clear understanding of what you believe. From your post it seems like you are saying that faith in Christ is not required for salvation. Is that a fair ***essment of what you believe?"

Can you help me understand what you really believe?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan I am asking you what YOU believe. So that is why I said "I would like to get a clear understanding of what you believe. From your post it seems like you are saying that faith in Christ is not required for salvation. Is that a fair ***essment of what you believe?"

Can you help me understand what you really believe?

Just watch the first 50 seconds.......
Walter says it far better than i ever could print here...

Just the first 50 seconds or so....and the answer is there,

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The people who are convicted and guilty are about to receive their sentence, when the Lord offers a way to be forgiven.

That is true Allen. We are all guilty and all of us deserve punishment and a "just" judge would sentence us because that is the "just" thing to do. Christ provides us with a pardon--to those who accept his invitation--even though we are guilty and deserve punishment.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

But the Lord does not force us to accept his forgiveness.....

I agree with you 100% on this one Allen. Those who place their faith in Christ do so because that is what they want to do and those who reject Christ do so because that is the choice that they want to make. Hey Allen we actually agree on something.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

And because the Lord loves the whole world, the offer goes out to all men....God is always drawing us to himself.

This seems to be the area that we disagree. I believe that the Father draws some--but not all--to Christ. You believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. However I have yet to see either you or Libby give me a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. In fact John 6 says the opposite. Can you provide me with the verses that substantiate your claim?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Just watch the first 50 seconds.......
Walter says it far better than i ever could print here...

Just the first 50 seconds or so....and the answer is there,

Allen I have watched it. But as I said I am interested in what YOU believe. Certainly you have a position on this vital topic.

From your post it seems like you are saying that faith in Christ is not required for salvation. Is that a fair ***essment of what you believe?"

[alanmolstad]

im saying what the bible says....

jesus is god Almighty
The invisible nature of god is clealy shown man in the things that are made.....so they are without excuse......excuse for what?...their "Unbelief!".....

So this 100% means that even if you never hear a word of the bible.....even if you live during a time when there is no church....and even if you NEVER hear of this guy named "Jesus" you still are given enough light from heaven by God Almighty to find Him.


Live alone on a world on the dark side of the universe?....no problem, for God Almighty (Jesus) is right there with you...watching you,,,drawing you to Himself every day..


So, as Walter says, we can end up in Hell if we dont respond to the light from Heaven we are given.
But if we do respond, then the Bible teaches clearly that if we seek God we will find him.

case-closed!




this is what i teach,,,this is what i have shown W Martin taught before me....and i believe it's as clear as I can make it