Free Will

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you provide me with the verses that substantiate your claim?

over and over I have shown you that the son can do what by himself ?................


NOTHING!




The son was sent to do whose will?......his own or his father's?............

The father's

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

im saying what the bible says....

jesus is god Almighty
The invisible nature of god is clealy shown man in the things that are made.....so they are without excuse......excuse for what?...their "Unbelief!".....

So this 100% means that even if you never hear a word of the bible.....even if you live during a time when there is no church....and even if you NEVER hear of this guy named "Jesus" you still are given enough light from heaven by God Almighty to find Him.

I am not sure where you stand with respect to what I asked you. Can a person be saved without placing his faith in Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

This seems to be the area that we disagree. I believe that the Father draws some--but not all--to Christ. You believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. However I have yet to see either you or Libby give me a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. In fact John 6 says the opposite. Can you provide me with the verses that substantiate your claim?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

over and over I have shown you that the son can do what by himself ?................


NOTHING!

The son was sent to do whose will?......his own or his father's?............

The father's

Allen I believe what I do because I have verses that substantiate what I believe. I would hope that you would do the same in that base your beliefs on the Bible so I am sure you must have some verses that say that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. I am simply asking you to share those with me.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am not sure where you stand with respect to what I asked you. Can a person be saved without placing his faith in Christ?

Im done answering that question....

I have given you the answer
My answer is correct
My answer is the only correct answer......But sometimes the horse simply does not drink.

[alanmolstad]

what can the son do by himself apart from the father?..............

[alanmolstad]

the son did many many things....of these things, what ones did Jesus say he did apart from the father?

[alanmolstad]

the son said many many things....of these things, what things did Jesus say were just his own ideas and not from the father?

[alanmolstad]

so when we read where the son is speaking, we know that it is the father's words as spoken though the son

[alanmolstad]

just as when we read that the son is doing something, we know that it is the father that is doing it though the son...

[alanmolstad]

so when we read that the son draws all men, we know that its the father that is doing the drawing.


(The son cant draw squat by himself)

[alanmolstad]

so once again.....I have given you the answer
The answer is correct
and it is the only correct answer

[alanmolstad]

and....I am also Done answering that question too.

Billy, you know full well where I stand on these matters...
I have answered all your questions...I have provided videos where Dr Walter martin teaches the very same concepts i have been quoting in my posts.
I have made up nothing by myself.
I also have made my posts as clear as i could hope to make them.
I find that I am fully satisfied with what i have given here, and so would refer you to my past posts if you still have lingering questions about what i believe.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am not sure where you stand with respect to what I asked you. Can a person be saved without placing his faith in Christ?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im done answering that question....

I have given you the answer
My answer is correct
My answer is the only correct answer......But sometimes the horse simply does not drink.

Perhaps I missed your post where where you answered my question. Could you tell me which post that was in so I can take a look at it?

[alanmolstad]

look for yourself.....

[Libby]

Billy, you've seen enough of both mine and Alan's argument to know where we stand. And, your verses do not uphold your position regarding God not drawing all men. You think they do, but they really don't, when you consider other scripture and get a bigger picture.

I think there is one area where Alan and I disagree and that is in regards to whether or not we can keep all the commandments perfectly. But, on the subject of "drawing all men" we are in perfect agreement. God would do no less. He does not discriminate, when it comes to salvation. He is drawing ALL people to Himself, through the Son.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

And, your verses do not uphold your position regarding God not drawing all men. You think they do, but they really don't, when you consider other scripture and get a bigger picture.

Libby you haven't given me a single verse that says that the Father draws ALL men to Christ. Compare this to my position where I have given you three sets of scripture just within John 6 only that indicate that the Father does not draw all men to Christ. Second there is no chance that the Father has drawn ALL men to Christ since not all men have even heard of Christ. Libby you are simply wrong on this one.

[Libby]

Not at all.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you would agree with letting the other 9 convicted murderers go free? Would you say that this is a just punishment for their crimes?

No, I would let NONE of them go free if they had all committed the same crime under the same circumstances and were equally without excuse and lacked remorse for their crime. THAT would be fair.

What is unfair is the favoritism that I see in the way Calvinism describes who goes to hell and who doesn't, and why.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

No, I would let NONE of them go free if they had all committed the same crime under the same circumstances and were equally without excuse and lacked remorse for their crime. THAT would be fair.

What is unfair is the favoritism that I see in the way Calvinism describes who goes to hell and who doesn't, and why.

Exactly.....

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Where did you come up with this idea? Would you say that this applies to the judicial system as well?

Sure, when a judicial system is run right, fairness in sentencing exists. The guy who stole a loaf of bread to feed his family gets a lighter sentence than the serial killer who murdered 10 people for fun. And the baby who hit another baby with a rattle doesn't get sentenced at all. A wise and fair and merciful judge looks at each defendant's circumstances--not just the circumstances of the crime, but the circumstances of the defendant's childhood, ethnic background, era in history when they lived, alternative choices that were or weren't available to them at the time they committed the crime....and THEN renders judgment.

That is how any judicial system SHOULD be run, on earth or in heaven.

Of all beings in the universe, God should qualify as the best judge in existence because He has no excuse to not be totally fair, wise, and merciful. After all: He's GOD. For Him to pardon one defendant but sentence another to eternity in hell, even though one did nothing different from the other, would be unthinkable to God, and it should be unthinkable for us to think that God would be such a lame judge.

[alanmolstad]

Libby....what commandment was given that god never once ever expected people to keep?......In other words....what Commandment was given to men with the instruction that it was just for "looks"....and that people did not have to take it serious?

[alanmolstad]

another question:

http://biblehub.com/john/8-11.htm

was God serious when he told the girl to "go and sin no more"?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

another question:

http://biblehub.com/john/8-11.htm

was God serious when he told the girl to "go and sin no more"?

Libby may be having trouble posting, but my answer would be that when Jesus told the adultress to commit THAT sin (adultery) no more, yes, He was serious.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Libby may be having trouble posting, but my answer would be that when Jesus told the adultress to commit THAT sin (adultery) no more, yes, He was serious.

"that sin".....?

By this are you saying that Jesus was not concerned with her other sins?
she did not have to change her life?.....just that one sin alone?


you see such an idea in the words of Christ there?

How so?

[alanmolstad]

when you read the different translations and get an idea of what the verse is saying, I dont see how you can come up with the idea that the girl was not told to go and 'sin no more"

It seems to be the preponderance of views of the translators of this verse that this was a general instruction for how the person is to live....and not limited at all!

Now we know full well that the girl was there because she was in-fact guilty of a sin that she was caught red-handed in....so that is naturally on everyone's mind.
But when Jesus sends her off he does so with a very wide-ranging command for her to follow....."Sin no more"



I doubt Jesus was telling her, "Well only stop doing the sins you got caught doing", for that sounds like something a 2-year old would think up.(Stop doing the stuff you get caught doing)