Free Will

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by disciple

Without Jesus, one lie will keep you separated from God as quickly as 10 murders will.

That is absolutely true. Since we all sin and fall short the only hope for any one of us is by placing our faith in Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Yes, he did and he still does. Those who believe and follow him.

And in the OT who were those people?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And in the OT who were those people?

The Israelites.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The Israelites.

God picked out a specific group of people with ordinances and sacrifices for sins. God did not provide this to others groups. Is that fair?

[Libby]

Whatever God does is "fair"...but I think we have to see the bigger picture, in order to see that, in the end, all really was fair, as he extended his grace and salvation to all peoples, without regard to race, gender or any other distinguishing characteristic.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

.....

Well thats fine,,,,,now Im going to ask you a question too...

What is the difference between "would not" and "could not"?

That is EASY. . .THE ABILITY TO DO IT.

I would not throw a match at a pool of gasoline. . .BUT I COULD! I know how to light the match and am a pretty good tosser!

So the challenge STILL STANDS:

SHOW ME IN SCRIPTURE that God ever gave anyone 'free will' at all, and I will show you where God said we are either a SLAVE TO SIN or a SLAVE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, and that we were BOUGHT from sin BY JESUS ON THE CROSS who PAID FOR US.

I don't think you can SHOW US how we could thwart God IF HE DRAWS US!

In Jesus,
morefish

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Christian

That is EASY. . .THE ABILITY TO DO IT.

I would not throw a match at a pool of gasoline. . .BUT I COULD! I know how to light the match and am a pretty good tosser!

So the challenge STILL STANDS:

SHOW ME IN SCRIPTURE that God ever gave anyone 'free will' at all, and I will show you where God said we are either a SLAVE TO SIN or a SLAVE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, and that we were BOUGHT from sin BY JESUS ON THE CROSS who PAID FOR US.

I don't think you can SHOW US how we could thwart God IF HE DRAWS US!

In Jesus,
morefish

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."

Seems like God/Jesus is asking us to do something, here. To exercise our "will" and open the door.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Whatever God does is "fair"...but I think we have to see the bigger picture, in order to see that, in the end, all really was fair, as he extended his grace and salvation to all peoples, without regard to race, gender or any other distinguishing characteristic.

I bring this up because you have said the electing some--but not all--is not fair. Yet we see that in the OT God picks out a chosen race--which is some but not all--who received God's word, ordinances, sacrifices for sins, and the had the opportunity to receive the words of God and benefit from the offerings, and the knowledge of a coming messiah that they could place their faith in. This was NOT available to ALL people throughout the world. Aren't you be hypocritical with your position about election?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."

Seems like God/Jesus is asking us to do something, here. To exercise our "will" and open the door.

Doesn't this also apply to obedience to the commandments. God commands us to obey all of the commandments but you don't have the free will to obey the commandments. Same applies to coming to Christ--we are commanded to come to him but we can't do so unless drawn by the Father.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I bring this up because you have said the electing some--but not all--is not fair. Yet we see that in the OT God picks out a chosen race--which is some but not all--who received God's word, ordinances, sacrifices for sins, and the had the opportunity to receive the words of God and benefit from the offerings, and the knowledge of a coming messiah that they could place their faith in. This was NOT available to ALL people throughout the world. Aren't you be hypocritical with your position about election?

Inconsistent, you mean? No, not really.

Yes, I knew that's what you were getting at, several posts ago. Yes, God had a "chosen people" in the Israelites (we all know that), but as I said earlier, that all changed when he opened up the Gospel to the whole world. He still has a "chosen people", but they are from all nations, races, etc., and they are chosen, because they believe in Jesus Christ.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Doesn't this also apply to obedience to the commandments. God commands us to obey all of the commandments but you don't have the free will to obey the commandments. Same applies to coming to Christ--we are commanded to come to him but we can't do so unless drawn by the Father.

What does that verse mean to you, Billy? What did God mean when he asks that we open the door? Was he just kidding?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

What does that verse mean to you, Billy? What did God mean when he asks that we open the door? Was he just kidding?

The invitation is open to all and anyone who comes to Christ and places their faith in Him will be saved.

Now let me ask you a question. When God asks us to obey the commandments "Was he just kidding?"

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The invitation is open to all and anyone who comes to Christ and places their faith in Him will be saved.

Now let me ask you a question. When God asks us to obey the commandments "Was he just kidding?"

lol...no, He was not. And, no, we "cannot"...at least, not perfectly.

[Libby]

I see the inconsistency in my argument. I just can't get past the idea that God could hold us responsible, if he is pulling all the strings...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I see the inconsistency in my argument. I just can't get past the idea that God could hold us responsible, if he is pulling all the strings...

I think I understand your position because when I first came out of Mormonism into Christianity in hindsight I would cl***ify my beliefs as "Arminian" even though I had no real grasp of Calvinism or Arminianism. But over the year of studying the Bible since then I just couldn't substantiate the "Arminian" position from the scriptures. Let's look at the keeping the commandments. We all choose to either obey or disobey the commandments--these are real choices that we make--and when we choose to disobey them we are at fault. The same goes for those who hear about Christ--they have a choice to either accept Him or reject Him and they are held responsible for that choice.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I think I understand your position because when I first came out of Mormonism into Christianity in hindsight I would cl***ify my beliefs as "Arminian" even though I had no real grasp of Calvinism or Arminianism. But over the year of studying the Bible since then I just couldn't substantiate the "Arminian" position from the scriptures. Let's look at the keeping the commandments. We all choose to either obey or disobey the commandments--these are real choices that we make--and when we choose to disobey them we are at fault. The same goes for those who hear about Christ--they have a choice to either accept Him or reject Him and they are held responsible for that choice.

It's funny, because I had a Calvinist "teacher" (someone who was witnessing to me), before I ever came out of Mormonism. He presented the Calvinist position so plainly that I had no doubt (at the time) that it was correct. He spent, probably, a couple of years going through the Bible with me. I kept arguing with him, like I have been with you, and finally had to admit that his view is in the Bible. I later accepted that as the correct view, which is how I ended up in a Reformed Church. But, the longer I sat with it and the more I thought about...even though I could see it in there, I couldn't "logically" comprehend it. Why would God choose only "some" for salvation? How could we be held responsible for a "sin nature" we were born with and had no hand in creating? Just lots of questions...thus, my wandering and searching...and questioning if that truly is the correct position. So, I started reading more about Arminanism and how they come to some of their beliefs, through the Bible..

[Libby]

Needless to say, I still don't have it all sorted out.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Doesn't this also apply to obedience to the commandments. God commands us to obey all of the commandments but you don't have the free will to obey the commandments. Same applies to coming to Christ--we are commanded to come to him but we can't do so unless drawn by the Father.

Hey Billy,
I'm just curious. . .WHICH COMMANDMENTS are we to follow? The 10? The 619? The 2?

Just curious about your thought here. . .Last I heard CHRISTIANITY is not about keeping commandments, but about LOVING THE LORD and LOVING OUR NEIGHBOR. . .NOT like the mormon religion that seems to be all about 'doing ordinances.' What do YOU think?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The invitation is open to all and anyone who comes to Christ and places their faith in Him will be saved.

Now let me ask you a question. When God asks us to obey the commandments "Was he just kidding?"

AND WILL or CAN all come? What do YOU do with John 6:44 and John 6:65 that say NOBODY CAN, UNLESS. . .?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You are always free to chouse what you want...God never takes away this Free Will that you have Libby...Never!

Do YOU REALLY BELIEVE that YOU CAN WANT what you don't understand, what is foolishness to you?

1 Cor 2:14-15
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1
NKJV

Can a DEAD person choose to come to life?

Or does someone (GOD) need to DRAW him out of his deathbed?

Perhaps you should think that out a bit.

Perhaps you should study your Bible a bit more.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Christian

AND WILL or CAN all come? What do YOU do with John 6:44 and John 6:65 that say NOBODY CAN, UNLESS. . .?

I don't believe all will come..no. But, I do believe all are drawn. Calvinists make this connection between "drawing" and "regeneration" that is not actually in the verse. It is inferred.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't believe all will come..no. But, I do believe all are drawn.

When you say ALL are drawn do you mean that ALL are drawn by the Father to Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I don't believe all will come..no. But, I do believe all are drawn. Calvinists make this connection between "drawing" and "regeneration" that is not actually in the verse. It is inferred.

John 6
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Why did those in verse 64 not believe according to Jesus?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Christian

Hey Billy,
I'm just curious. . .WHICH COMMANDMENTS are we to follow? The 10? The 619? The 2?

Just curious about your thought here. . .Last I heard CHRISTIANITY is not about keeping commandments, but about LOVING THE LORD and LOVING OUR NEIGHBOR. . .NOT like the mormon religion that seems to be all about 'doing ordinances.' What do YOU think?

None of us keep the commandments. The more commandments that are given the more that are broken. Salvation is based on faith in Christ not our works.

Romans 4
1.What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.
3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.


I don't think you understood the point that I was trying to make when speaking about obedience to the commandments. Libby's argument was that if the basis for salvation is faith in Christ and those who are not elect do not have the ability to place their faith in Christ then they don't have a real choice to choose him. But the same argument could be make for obedience to the commandments. We are commanded to obey the commandments but we do not have the ability to keep them so using her argument we do not have a real choice to keep the commandments. Does that help you understand why I used this example?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

When you say ALL are drawn do you mean that ALL are drawn by the Father to Christ?

I mean that the Father is attracting everyone, but only some will respond. He knows in advance who those will be.