Free Will

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Apologette

You know, I've encountered some hyper-Arminian Christians who would agree that there will be animal sacrifices in some future Third Temple. I, of course, objected - but was told that I must have a different God than the One in the bible!

I believe that the Jews will rebuilt their temple and start animal sacrifices during the tribulation period prior to the second coming of Christ. But from their point of view they are still under the law. But this is not the case for Mormons which is what makes this interesting to me.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

"Rahab, the pros***ute, risked her life in order to hide the Jewish scouts (Joshua 2,1-21; Hebrews 11,31)."

Josh. 6:25 But Rahab the pros***ute and her father’s household and all who belonged to her, Joshua saved alive. And she has lived in Israel to this day, because she hid the messengers whom Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.

You don't think that she learned about the coming Messiah from the Jews who knew about the coming Messiah?


So tell me how were the OT saints saved if belief in Christ (the coming Messiah) wasn't necessary for salvation--according to you?

I'm sure she probably heard about the Messiah, at some point, but not before her salvation was secured through "faith"...which was the author's point.

Billy, God recognized both sin and faith in his people (and in some that were not his official people). Doesn't that tell something?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I agree that they are not open at all despite the fact that the scriptures testify against them. But neither are the Mormons who occasionally post here.

This is not true, Billy. I was a strong supporter of Reformed doctrine, after I came out of Mormonism. I even supported (debated) it over on CARM for a long while. I still do see where it comes from...and to be honest, I see the holes in my own arguments here. But, I also see a quite a few in the Reformed position, as well. I learn a lot by doing this kind of back and forth. I appreciate the challenge you have put forth. It helps me see where my own thinking about all of this might be off.

And, I am always open to scriptural support.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm sure she probably heard about the Messiah, at some point, but not before her salvation was secured through "faith"...which was the author's point.

What was her faith in that saved her?

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, God recognized both sin and faith in his people (and in some that were not his official people). Doesn't that tell something?

So faith in Christ (or the coming Messiah) is NOT required for salvation?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

And, I am always open to scriptural support.

What about all of the verses that I have given you? You simply have denied what they have said.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What was her faith in that saved her?

In the One True and Living God.

So faith in Christ (or the coming Messiah) is NOT required for salvation?

Isn't Jesus also the One True and Living God? She may not have had a name, but she knew him all the same.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What about all of the verses that I have given you? You simply have denied what they have said.

No, I have not. Not at all. I have questioned the Reformed interpretation of those verses. That is NOT rejecting scripture.

[Libby]

Billy, there are millions of Arminians out there. Do you have any idea where they are coming from, scripturally?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Isn't Jesus also the One True and Living God? She may not have had a name, but she knew him all the same.

You didn't answer my question. So faith in Christ (or the coming Messiah) is NOT required for salvation?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, I have not. Not at all. I have questioned the Reformed interpretation of those verses. That is NOT rejecting scripture.

You have changed your position along the way so let's get your position down then we can look at the verses again. Let's start with this.

Do you believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ? Yes or No?

[cheachea]

Shouldn't this topic be moved to the Hermeneutics Section ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by cheachea

Shouldn't this topic be moved to the Hermeneutics Section ?

Probably--but if it is moved the discussion will die and there there are only two or three posters that are posting on this forum and none are lds so I would prefer that it continues to get hashed out here.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm sure she probably heard about the Messiah, at some point, but not before her salvation was secured through "faith"...which was the author's point.

What verse says that Rahab was saved prior to her knowledge about the Jewish God and knowledge of a coming Messiah?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by cheachea

Shouldn't this topic be moved to the Hermeneutics Section ?

I would agree with you, if there really were a bunch of LDS discussions going on here, but since there are not, I see no harm in having it here. Plus, Billy is right that many LDS are often interested in this discussion, as well.

Btw, cheachea, thank you for the information you provided over on the Oneness forum. Much appreciated.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You didn't answer my question. So faith in Christ (or the coming Messiah) is NOT required for salvation?

Faith in Christ is required, yes.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You have changed your position along the way so let's get your position down then we can look at the verses again. Let's start with this.

Do you believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ? Yes or No?

I think so, yes. Believe is the right word, in my case. Honestly, I don't know...but it seems to me that a loving and just God could do no less.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Faith in Christ is required, yes.

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm sure she probably heard about the Messiah, at some point, but not before her salvation was secured through "faith"...which was the author's point.

Your statements are conflicting. So which one is true?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What verse says that Rahab was saved prior to her knowledge about the Jewish God and knowledge of a coming Messiah?

I'm sure it does not say that specifically, but do you believe she knew all of the ins and outs of Jewish belief, before she was converted? The scriptures say that she "believed" because she saw how God was delivering the Israelites from the hands of their enemies.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Your statements are conflicting. So which one is true?

Billy, isn't belief in the One True God also belief in Jesus Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you believe that the Father draws ALL men to Christ? Yes or No?

Originally Posted by Libby

I think so, yes. Believe is the right word, in my case. Honestly, I don't know...but it seems to me that a loving and just God could do no less.

Yet in a prior post you said

Originally Posted by Libby

Rehab and others mentioned here did not know about the prophecies. They knew nothing of Christ.

The point that you were trying to make at the time was that many people were saved and didn't know a thing about Christ.

And what about all of the other people that lived during the OT who never were exposed to the Jews and the future Messiah. Where they drawn by the Father to Christ? Had they even heard about Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, isn't belief in the One True God also belief in Jesus Christ?

Let's look at your statements again

Originally Posted by Libby

Faith in Christ is required, yes.

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm sure she probably heard about the Messiah, at some point, but not before her salvation was secured through "faith"...which was the author's point.

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, isn't belief in the One True God also belief in Jesus Christ?

You clearly made a distinction in your post and said that salvation was NOT based in faith in the coming Messiah.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I believe that the Jews will rebuilt their temple and start animal sacrifices during the tribulation period prior to the second coming of Christ. But from their point of view they are still under the law. But this is not the case for Mormons which is what makes this interesting to me.

I'm more of an amil type.

[Billyray]

Libby the website that you gave earlier said that Abraham was saved and never heard about Christ. Do you believe the site that you quoted which said that Abraham never heard about Christ (the coming Messiah)?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Libby the website that you gave earlier said that Abraham was saved and never heard about Christ. Do you believe the site that you quoted which said that Abraham never heard about Christ (the coming Messiah)?

Of course, Abraham knew that a Messiah would, one day, come, but the point of the article (which I thought was a good one) was that salvation is always by grace through faith. Faith in the One Living God, which includes Jesus Christ, does it not? You didn't answer MY question.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Of course, Abraham knew that a Messiah would, one day, come, but the point of the article (which I thought was a good one) was that salvation is always by grace through faith.

Your quoted article

". . .Surprisingly, in Hebrews 11 we can find a whole list of people who never heard about Christ but still are saved. . .This text gives many examples of people who lived before Christ and were saved without hearing about him. . ."

Then you posted

Originally Posted by Libby

Rehab and others mentioned here did not know about the prophecies. They knew nothing of Christ.

Your argument was that a person can be saved--and there were many saved--without faith in Christ. Then article goes on to say that Abraham etc. "NEVER HEARD ABOUT CHRIST".

Your argument has now changed--like a lot of your arguments--when I point out that you are wrong.