Free Will

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Faith in the One Living God, which includes Jesus Christ, does it not? You didn't answer MY question.

The One Living God includes: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Salvation comes when you place your faith in Christ to save you.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Then you posted

Your argument was that a person can be saved--and there were many saved--without faith in Christ. Then article goes on to say that Abraham etc. "NEVER HEARD ABOUT CHRIST".

Your argument has now changed--like a lot of your arguments--when I point out that you are wrong.

My argument hasn't changed. It is being refined.

Seriously, my argument hasn't changed. Anyone who knew or knows the True Living God, also knows Jesus Christ (even if they don't exactly realize it). The Israelites were faithful to the One True God, by living the LAW (or trying to), before the Messiah came.

This is, once again, getting convoluted.

What is your point exactly? That not everyone knew Christ, therefore, not everyone has been drawn?

[Libby]

Your argument was that a person can be saved--and there were many saved--without faith in Christ.

Not, that was not my argument. My argument was that people who put their faith in the One True and Living God (if they are truly doing that) may not know the NAME of Jesus Christ, but that is who they were putting their faith in, because he IS the One True Living God.

[Libby]

Billy, do you believe that only people who knew/know the NAME of Jesus can be saved?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

My argument hasn't changed. It is being refined.

Seriously, my argument hasn't changed.

Here is your post.

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm sure she probably heard about the Messiah, at some point, but not before her salvation was secured through "faith"...which was the author's point.

Libby you have changed you argument here just like you have changed your argument in other places. Here you have clearly stated that salvation takes place prior to any knowledge about Christ and then you go on and say "which was the author's point".

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Billy, do you believe that only people who knew/know the NAME of Jesus can be saved?

Only those who have faith in Christ (or in the OT the future Messiah) will be saved.

You don't believe that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Not, that was not my argument. My argument was that people who put their faith in the One True and Living God (if they are truly doing that) may not know the NAME of Jesus Christ, but that is who they were putting their faith in, because he IS the One True Living God.

Can you place your faith in the Holy Spirit and be saved?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here is your post.

Libby you have changed you argument here just like you have changed your argument in other places. Here you have clearly stated that salvation takes place prior to any knowledge about Christ and then you go on and say "which was the author's point".

The point was, people were saved by grace, through faith, back in O.T. times, just as we are now, even before they knew the NAME, Jesus Christ. So, I'm not so sure but what that could not also be true, today (for some).

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Only those who have faith in Christ (or in the OT the future Messiah) will be saved.

You don't believe that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation.

Why do you keep asking me that? I've made it very clear that faith in Christ is required. I just don't think everyone knew his NAME, when they were putting their faith in the One True God.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The point was, people were saved by grace, through faith, back in O.T. times, just as we are now, even before they knew the NAME, Jesus Christ. So, I'm not so sure but what that could not also be true, today (for some).

Originally Posted by Libby

I'm sure she probably heard about the Messiah, at some point, but not before her salvation was secured through "faith"...which was the author's point.

You brought up Rahab as an example of someone who was saved before she heard about the Messiah. When was she saved?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you place your faith in the Holy Spirit and be saved?

Isn't the Holy Spirit also the Spirit of Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I've made it very clear that faith in Christ is required. I just don't think everyone knew his NAME, when they were putting their faith in the One True God.

Who in the world during the OT times knew about the "One True God"?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Isn't the Holy Spirit also the Spirit of Christ?

You didn't answer my question. Can you place your faith in the Holy Spirit and be saved?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Who in the world during the OT times knew about the "One True God"?

The Israelites and various ***orted others, who came in contact with them.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You didn't answer my question. Can you place your faith in the Holy Spirit and be saved?

Salvation is through Jesus Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The Israelites and various ***orted others, who came in contact with them.

And the rest of the world outside of those you mentioned did not believe in the true God, nor did they know about Christ/Messiah. Did the Father draw ALL of these people to Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I just don't think everyone knew his NAME, when they were putting their faith in the One True God.

When you say putting your faith in the One True God (not in Christ) what does that mean exactly?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

When you say putting your faith in the One True God (not in Christ) what does that mean exactly?

How could it be the One True God without Christ? All I said was, that some may not know his name. The Israelites didn't know God's name for along time. Some people who believe in the One True God, may not know Christ's name....is what I meant, exactly.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And the rest of the world outside of those you mentioned did not believe in the true God, nor did they know about Christ/Messiah. Did the Father draw ALL of these people to Christ?

I think he must have, yes...somehow.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

When you say putting your faith in the One True God (not in Christ) what does that mean exactly?

Originally Posted by Libby

How could it be the One True God without Christ? All I said was, that some may not know his name. The Israelites didn't know God's name for along time. Some people who believe in the One True God, may not know Christ's name....is what I meant, exactly.

I don't think you understood what I was asking. If someone doesn't know about Christ--what exactly are they putting their faith in? (Hint--when you say "faith" what does that mean exactly)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think he must have, yes...somehow.

So all of these other people who have lived without any knowledge of the Only true God and the future Messiah--which means that they never heard about this true God--were drawn by the Father to the Son? And how is that exactly?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't think you understood what I was asking. If someone doesn't know about Christ--what exactly are they putting their faith in? (Hint--when you say "faith" what does that mean exactly)

I have already answered that. People like Rehab putting their faith in the God of Abraham, because she saw, first hand, that He was real and had real power. Putting her faith in the God of Abraham was also (simultaneously) putting her faith in Jesus Christ...even though she didn't know his name.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So all of these other people who have lived without any knowledge of the Only true God and the future Messiah--which means that they never heard about this true God--were drawn by the Father to the Son? And how is that exactly?

Well, I think Alan has covered some of that and even put some Bible verses to it. All men are without excuse? What do you think that means, exactly?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I have already answered that. People like Rehab putting their faith in the God of Abraham, because she saw, first hand, that He was real and had real power. Putting her faith in the God of Abraham was also (simultaneously) putting her faith in Jesus Christ...even though she didn't know his name.

Again you don't seem to know what I am asking you. When you say putting faith in the God of Abraham what do you mean by "faith"? For example do you mean faith = belief in a god?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Well, I think Alan has covered some of that and even put some Bible verses to it. All men are without excuse? What do you think that means, exactly?

All men are without an excuse because they know that there is a God and they know basic right and wrong and despite this they do not do what they know they should do. You have said yourself the pertaining to the OT at least that there are many people who have never even heard about the true God so this by itself shows you that the Father did not draw ALL men to Christ. Yet you still hold these conflicting beliefs.